East vs. West

[Zappa]

Who would win in a duel to the death between a western sword master and an eastern swords master? And spare me the stuff about the two styles being totally different. Just go with it! What would happen if a master from the west (Italian, French, Spanish style) dueled with a master from the east (i.e. Samurai). Lets try not to let our opinions die the death of a thousand qualifications. Like I said, just go with it.

[Craig]

West. (Not going to bother to qualify why - I've got a 50/50 chance of being correct.)


Cheers,
Craig

[Ken Mondschein]

Originally posted by Zappa:
<STRONG>Who would win in a duel to the death between a western sword master and an eastern swords master. </STRONG>

Whoever had the magic sword forged by the dwarves, of course.

[DarkTransient]

Obviously Li Mu Bai will beat anyone, with a fallen tree branch.

[HilandDoug]

I thought dwarves made hammers? But I'll go with Ken, the magic would give the weilder an edge over the competition....

[Pommel]

Given that the weapons used were roughly equivalent (aka not a dagger v. a katana) I'd like to think it'd come down to the individual swordsman's skill. A lot of it would have to do with their ability to adapt to a style of fighting they haven't seen before.

[Inquartata]

They would probably kill each other.

A samurai would probably not be able to cope with the lunge of a rapierman; on the other hand, he would probably be fully capable of finishing a cut even while transfixed, before the fencer could withdraw to safety...

[MikeHarm]

I think the samurai would probably slice the swordsman in half after getting punctured before their blow could land, then die slow lingering deaths due to blood poisoning from the cuts of their rusty rapiers.

Mike

[attila]

Kewl! This crap is just up my alley. We CAN get a glimpse into the truth of the question. At our club we play with electric shinai on the sabre circuit. Just a couple of weeks ago we had a bout between a saber guy ( A former member of the US vet sabre team) fencing our best electric shinai practicioner ( Jiu-Jitsu derrived blade work) and had them go at it. Not even close. The saber guy shredded the shinai fencer. Two hand sword distance is much shorter than one hand sabre distance.And the saber is much more manouverable. The saberist also had better control of overall distance. As the shinai would lift for a cut the saberist stop cut with ease, also the saberist could let the cut go and counter as the blade cut to the ground. It was most instructive. But this is just us having fun. Would be nice to have a time machine Huh?!

[DarkTransient]

Yes, but it is entirely a different matter with real weapons when a fencer actually needs to do more then just touch this opponent with the blade.

Also the distance thing is not really an issue, because a katana can be wielded by one hand too. In fact it is seen quite often in kendo tournaments.

A real problem with katana is that it doesn't have a bellguard. So it is conceivable that a saberer can exploit this weakness.

[ 09-05-2001: Message edited by: DarkTransient ]

[attila]

DT

Duh?! Of course it would be different! And you are wrong about distance. It is very important. If you can disarm an opponent by simple stop cut to the hand/ wrist you will have an easy kill. What are you thinking? Next up we should to epee vs shinai and see what happens. Empyrical data and all that rot! DT you should try it, it is lots of fun. You do have a point about the guard thing ( tsuba), The shinai have really small guards and as such are not usefull to deflect incoming attacks. I have noted that Katana do have a larger tsuba. I'm gonna have to work on that. My next project ( still in the primary stages) is to put a basket hilt on a shinai and see if it acts like a broadsword. So far we do all modern weapons ,plus electric shinai, electric main gauche and saber, working on electric basket hilt and next year we plan on doing electric mensur-- we already have the schlagers and if we use the electric sabre circuit and just a sabre mask we should be set.
Yes, I do have much too much time on my hands.

Attila

[Ken Mondschein]

Obviously, Attila's saberist's weapon was forged by the skillful hammers of the dwarves, whereas the electric shinai was not.

Or the saberist just knows how to execute a stop-cut to the hand.

[MStaubitz]

As an avid Tolkien fan (and RPG Gamer for more than a decade), let me tell you that dwarves use hammers mainly as tools to craft other weapons, predominantly axes (to cut down the elven forests for firewood).

As an interesting side note, the latest version of Dungeons & Dragons features a weapon called the Elven Thinblade... Similar to the Rapier, but even thinner blade... Epee anyone???

[Stryder]

Attilla-

Keep improving the design of your weapons and eventually you'll end up with an MP5KSD or maybe an ICBM?

What is the point of redesigning fencing weapons? The point of sports is excelling within the boundaries of the rulebook. If you are trying to recreate real combat, just try drinking more than you should at a bar far from home. That's pretty realistic.

[attila]

Stryder

Slow down there big guy. What we do is NOT a sport. It has no rules. It is just for FUN ( ever heard of that?). From what we do for fun, we can get a glimpse of what it would BE LIKE. Which what this thread is all about. We are not into re-creating combat. We are much too cowardly for that. We like our fakey sport just for what it is . A fake way to make belive we are trully trying to kill the other guy. I assume you also fence electric? Well, if someone did not re-design that dry foil we would all still be *****ing about QOP, plaque vs. point on and right of way like our classical/historical cousins. I am glad someone got the nerve to try something new and as a bonus annoy all those folks with a 2bi up their butt. So am I annoying you?

[Bugaboo]

They would both die shortly before the competition even begins. Each side, distrusting the other, will arrange to secrete a gunman or sniper somewhere on site. A minor disagreement between swordmasters will cause one of them to slap the other (as part of the process for showing his righteous indignation). Gunfire will erupt. Casualties will be heavy on both sides. The streets will run red with blood.

[Stryder]

Attila-

Help me understand this:
"What we do is NOT a sport. It has no rules. It is just for FUN....We like our fakey SPORT just for what it is."

Is fencing a sport, or not a sport? And what does that have to do with anything?
Someone DID redesign the foil and that is the source of most of the *****ing in the fencing world. Luckily I came along after that design so I am comfortable with the new design, not the old.

Adding new parts to your fencing weapons is your perogative, of course. It just seems like a silly pursuit that will end when you get to projectile foil tips or sabre arrows that knock into sabre bows.
Or maybe epee bullets.

[attila]

I can see the confusion. My bad. Poor contruction was my bane in school. Ok. The electric shinai part is the for fun portion. IT has no rules. We just like to bash about and see if we can get a single light.

Our "fakey" sport is the one that we call Olympic style fencing. Because it is a fake way to pretend we are really killing the opponent. It too is fun. But NOT the only way to have fun in fencing. Lots of different folk fence. Including the Kendo guys. Says so on the FAQ over at rec.sport.fencing anyway. All I have done is to bring the shinai into the electric age. Is that so wrong?!

I think you are wrong when you say most of the *****ing comes from the electric game. We have less *****ing about the validity of the hit. You may not like that the light went off, but there the sucker is. Our Classical/Historical couisins can write whole volumes on wether or not a hit occurred. Probably why we keep the eletric thing around?! So do you think we should run fencing tournies the old fashioned way-- since there was less *****ing then????????

[foiledagain]

I believe it is the dwarves who make hammers and axes...for a really good blade you have to go to the elves. (I'm re-reading Lord of the Rings in preparation for the up coming movie).

Of course the movie is never as good as the book! (but that is a different topic)

The person with the magical elven blade is the one who will win.

[FoilFencer2001]

I'd have to agree with Inquartata;

You have to assume both fighters would be surprised by his oppnent, although, being swordsmen both, they would be smart enough to make logical assumptions based on the blade-type and stance of the other.

Our Musketeer (or Senior de la Vega, et al, take your pick...), would judge the Katana to be a two-handed slicing weapon as the Japanese master would likely see the rapier or smallsword to be a thrusting weapon.

Not accustomed to the needed distance and timing required with disimilar weapons, a double killing would be most likely, IMHO.

A Spanish fighter would probably have a greater advantage than other Europeans at the time due to the circular (Thibault's Circle) approach to engagement.

I was once scolded in class for stepping around my opponent and hitting his gut from the side as he went by. "No sideways! Back and forth. You just stepped off the strip!"

Oops. That comes from reading too much about swords before ever learning to fence.

In the words of John Clements:

"The samurai would move directly to make a devastating cut, becoming punctured through the head or lung as a result, but still having his cut cleave through the rapier fighter's head and torso (or at least his arm). Else, the rapier fighter would, over time, make multiple shallow punctures to the samurai's hands, arms and face until able to deliver an incapacitating thrust..."

(He talks about it a great length, that's just an exerpt.)

Fascinating topic for discussion.

[ 09-09-2001: Message edited by: FoilFencer2001 ]