East vs. West

[Matt_Bailey]

Okay:

Quick show of hands:
Who here has trained in a combat related Japanese Sword Art? (For all intents and purposes, some form of kenjutsu? Well, not me. Longsword, hell yes, but its not a katana, despite some simularities.)

What about a combat related form of modern fencing? (For intents and purposes, Classical, but perhaps a clean sport style will fit the bill. Not me, either)

Who has tried any of this cutting with them there swords to actually see about all these cuts we're arguing about? (I have, but not with a classical duelling sabre. The only thing I will point out that cutting requires more force and is generally more difficult than many give credit for.)

Then there is the small matter of whether ones sporting sabre, foil, or epee acurately simulates a combative weapon...particulary with sabre but I digress.

Anyway, too many questions for me to develop a defenative answer. The only thing I will say, is in that my experiene of pitting sword against rapier, I prefer sword.

[attila]

Hi Matt

I have a few swords that I have tried out. One is a carbon steel Indonesian sword that is very lively. I have a few trees where I practiced cutting off different sized branches. I noticed that the smaller and quicker the blade the better the cut. The worst for me was the Scottish Basket hilt. I guess MY arm is not manly enough for that one. It cut like a dull ax. I have also taken a sport foil ,sharpened it up and checked out how deep it punctures stuff with a flick vs, a thrust. No contest. a good beat flick put in a deeper hole than a thrust. The cool thing about all this cutting is that I noticed that a good cut with a sword has the same mechanical arm action as a flick. A sword draw cut ( Iaido) has the same movement, except the feet, as a flank flick or a chest flick ,rightie to a leftie. And a good sabre parry riposte has the same action as an absence of blade feint flank, flick to the shoulder. Sabre and longsword need the "loading" of the cut for it max efficiency and that is the weakness in a contest versus a rapier. A skilled fencer with rapier I think would take advantage of the load and execute small debilitating wounds to arm and hands until he could close for a kill. Wouldn't you? Best example of this was in that horrid movie "Rob Roy". The evil guy just danced around the hero flicking him into swiss cheese. The ending sucked tho'. The evil guy should have won.......

[Matt_Bailey]

Hi Attila. Thank you for perpetuating the myth that pre-Rapier Euro swords handle like lead pipes and cut about as well!

The typical replica scottish basket hilt you find is at least a pound, often as much as two lbs, overweight, as compared to the actual thing. I have one of these things as well, and I consider it better for strength training than anything else. A good single handed sword for cut an thrust swordplay weighs between a little over one to a little under three pounds. Its amazing how most single handed cut and thrust swords over most time periods fall within those parameters.

And for the love of god, do not test your sword on trees. The tree deserves better, and so does the sword.

I have also taken a sport foil ,sharpened it up and checked out how deep it punctures stuff with a flick vs, a thrust. No contest.

Forensic tests have shown that it takes somewhat less than a pound of pressure for a sharp point to penetrate as deeply as you like...are we attacking trees again?

"Loading?" I have never heard of this techniqe. I think we are confusing stage combat technique with crowbars with the actual sword technique here... You might thrust in as a swordsman begins his cut, and land home slightly before he does, but double kills aren't good for anybody's health.


Repeat after me. Rob Roy..was a _movie_. An entertaining movie, which I enjoyed, but still fiction. (Especially every fact about Robert McGregors life...) That Liam Neeson handled his prop-sword like it was a crowbar does mean the real things are crowbars. Come now, do you really think men were so stupid for centuries they carried unmanageble weapons.

[attila]

Hi matt

Did I hit a nerve there?! I don't usually listen to people who go on and on on the internet on just how something really worked. I really like to take a few wacks at things and see what I can find on my own time. You sems to be the same way,eh? Sorry my empyrical runs do not match yours. However, I don't do stage fighting and some of these swords do feel like lead pipes. How do you cut through things without loading the cut? My indonesian sword is quite sharp ( razor sharp) and I can't cut through a thing without loading up the arm and swinging through. This is what I mean when I say " loading", what is your term for that?
There have, and always be stupid men. Many of those will carry ****ty weapons. They all eventually end up dead.But the thread is about putting two different weapons against each other. And what I do is just to get a glimpse of what it would be like. You are right ,trees suck, there this cat in the neighborhood I have been trying to shut up. That sucker is next.....

[Inquartata]

I have to add my ? to the "loading" thing. Can you explain this a bit more fully?

I agree with you about the feel of a ( poorly made ) sword. It may weigh the same as a good one, but the balance is so off that it feels like a barbell in the hands. A good one, with the same amount of steel in it, seems to "float"...

[FoilFencer2001]

Atilla,

What Matt was saying (I think), is that real swords were much lighter and more maneuverable than ther modern, poorly-made replicas.

Example: you can get a so-called rapier from a well-known mail order company for about $69 that looks great and weighs about 6 pounds.

You can also get a rapier from another company, for about $250, which weighs about 1.6 pounds.

Guess which one has a true, flexible balde and is more realistic? You guessed it.

It makes me sad to remember all the high school and college teachers I had, who told the class how European sword fighters carried heavy, useless swords and would have been decimated by their Asian counterparts, had they ever met in battle.

Basic logic should have been enough to make these folks question this assumption. Why and how could generations of men fight with inadequate weapons in an age of science and learning, without anyone working toward making a superior design?

Anyhow, swords are awesome. I collect lots of them.

Have fun.

[attila]

Hi foilfencer

Thanks for the clarification. Yes, real weapons are much better. I wish I could afford the real thing, but with the price of FIE gear..... I read of an instance where European men at arms went against the Mongols in Silesia. Knight's Hospitalers and the Teutonic Brotherhood took on the Golden Horde on their advance into Poland. The battle was a rout. Lightly armored cavalry beat heavy armored cavalry not by using sword ( well, just to finish them off)but by using Mongol Lasso(sp?). They roped the knights outta their horses and finished them off in quick order. Sneaky bastards those Mongols.

[Matt_Bailey]

Atilla:
You're right. It was late last night, and reviewing my post, I made my point entirely too strongly. I appologize. I do not feel like discussing it further at this times.
Peace