Continental allotment of Olympic places

[PeterGustafsson]

Hi!


The thread about team allotment in the OG reminded me of an at least as large unfairness (IMO) concerning allotment of the OG fencing places.

As it is, I think that the non-European countries get many more places than their world rankings would motivate. Without having done a statistical check on it, I still believe that the non-European countries have a significantly higher quouta OG berths/number of fencers in the top 48 world rankings. Furthermore, I believe that such a discrepancy still exists, even if one excludes fencers who are not top-three in their own home countries.

One can argue that the OG should give places for all over the world so that fencing is spread and people from non-powerhouses get someone to root for. However, I think that that reasoning has gone too far, given the limited numbers of especially team berths.

As it is, the host country has a place in all team events, nonwithstanding its world rankings. The Greek teams last time did not do too well. I think that it would be more appropriate if the host country gets two automatic team places in the weapons that they have their best world rankings, but has to qualify for any team places in addition to those.

I would furthermore think that more places should be alloted based on world ranking/World Championship placements, and that somewhat fewer places are set aside for continental champions/top rankers.

Opinions? Thoughts? Stats to prove me wrong?


Have a nice time!

Peter Gustafsson

[oiuyt]

Originally Posted by PeterGustafsson

As it is, the host country has a place in all team events, nonwithstanding its world rankings. The Greek teams last time did not do too well. I think that it would be more appropriate if the host country gets two automatic team places in the weapons that they have their best world rankings, but has to qualify for any team places in addition to those.

I don't believe this is true. My understanding from Athens was that Greece, as home country, got X slots (8?) which they could distribute in any manner of their choosing, including using them to be able to build teams. If my memory isn't playing tricks, that seems like about what you're suggesting.

-B :)

[Peach]

Peter - The solution you propose would be appropriate for a true world championships, but that is not what the Olympic Games really are. The games evolved as a sports festival with broad international participation and an emphasis on inclusion. Although they have been too successful for their own good, resulting in a restricted number of athletes and medals in a far-too-broad selection of sports from a huge array of countries, reducing the number of countries which can participate would only further the decay of the idea.

[sabreur]

It's undoubtedly never-neverland thinking, but wouldn't it be nice if we could go back to a system where any country can send a single athlete in a weapon, and those with multiple athletes in the top 100 world rankings can send up to three?

MR

[mollusk]

Originally Posted by sabreur

It's undoubtedly never-neverland thinking, but wouldn't it be nice if we could go back to a system where any country can send a single athlete in a weapon, and those with multiple athletes in the top 100 world rankings can send up to three?

MR

Do you really want Eddie the Eagle in every event?

[Peach]

Originally Posted by mollusk

Do you really want Eddie the Eagle in every event?

Yes, actually. That was fun.

[Boo Boo]

Originally Posted by sabreur

It's undoubtedly never-neverland thinking, but wouldn't it be nice if we could go back to a system where any country can send a single athlete in a weapon, and those with multiple athletes in the top 100 world rankings can send up to three?

Oh yes, I am 100% behind you

Don't think it will happen though.

I don't think the current system is brilliant (being from a European country is not great!), but it is not a bad compromise...

Boo

[Inquartata]

And when ( if ) the EU becomes a political reality, all the individual member countries will stop being able to be represented, and there will be a single EU team, right? That ought to cut down on the number of athletes and teams a bit.

[BoutAfrica]

I think the current system works fine. What you Europeans don’t seem to understand is that non-European countries don’t have the opportunities to constantly compete in international tournaments like you do. You can just hop on a plane and go to Paris for the weekend, do your World Cup and come home. I live at the very tip of Africa so it is near impossible for me to go to world Cups. The Government and Federation pay nothing and so I can barely afford to go to World Champs once a year. I know That Australians and South Americans (who at least they have some world cups) have the same problem.

I also want the opportunity to go to the Olympics some day and in this regard the new system helps even out the odds. Besides the Olympics is, like Peach implied, about Sportsmanship and unity. Lets face it, the top 16 (generalization, I know)fencers are really who’s competing for Gold any way.

[DHCJr]

But, what difference does it make if someone is 32nd in the world or 300th in the world and they go to the Olympics. Most likely they will loose every bout they fence in the Olympics. Half the Men loose every individual bout they fence at the Olympics. That is not true for the Women though. Most of the Women win at least one bout. At least that is how it is was at the last Olympics and if the FIE does what it says it will do that will be true for the next Olympics.

[Boo Boo]

Originally Posted by DHCJr

But, what difference does it make if someone is 32nd in the world or 300th in the world and they go to the Olympics. Most likely they will loose every bout they fence in the Olympics. Half the Men loose every individual bout they fence at the Olympics. That is not true for the Women though. Most of the Women win at least one bout. At least that is how it is was at the last Olympics and if the FIE does what it says it will do that will be true for the next Olympics.

Surely, in the Olympics, if you loose your first bout you are out fullstop... Assuming 24 in women's foil, 8 will leave the Olympics "loosing all their bouts"....

Boo

[DHCJr]

So you agree with me Boo Boo. All the men have 32, so 16, half, loose their first bout for sure and they are out. But I was wrong in my statement on the men. I should have said was AT LEAST half will not win a single bout. We could have the new rule put out by Roch and both fencers black carded for passivity.

[oiuyt]

Originally Posted by DHCJr

So you agree with me Boo Boo. All the men have 32, so 16, half, loose their first bout for sure and they are out. But I was wrong in my statement on the men. I should have said was AT LEAST half will not win a single bout. We could have the new rule put out by Roch and both fencers black carded for passivity.

Don't forget the 4th person on various teams that never fence an Olympic bout... no losses, but they don't win a single one. :) More mens teams means more 4th men.

Now looking at the 24 women. 8 lose their first bout in the L32. Up to another 8 COULD lose their first bout in the L16. In theory 16/24 women could lose their only Olympic bout. With 32 men, half MUST win at least one Olympic bout (exlcuding the double blackcards).

-B :)

[DHCJr]

I stand corrected and you are right theorectically more of the ladies COULD loose every bout. The trouble is the only way that would happen is for the 1st through the 8th ranked would have to be the ones who lost in the second round. In the first round 9 - 24 fence and 1 - 8 do not fence.

Saying that, is this a competiton or an demonstration. Most show up for one bout. Think of baseball at the '96 games. One team lost their first 3 games. Did that put them out? No, they went on to win the Gold medal.

[swordsen]

The quote reprted to me by folks who worked at the Atlanta Olympics was "This is a show, not a competition."

[downunder]

Originally Posted by oiuyt

Don't forget the 4th person on various teams that never fence an Olympic bout... no losses, but they don't win a single one.

and they don't even get a medal for their trouble...