Differences in Foil/Saber ROW

[I_luv_saber]

I was just a little curious at some of the differences in saber/foil ROW. I'm a sabreur, and have watched little foil, let alone fenced it. I'm looking to answers for questions like, "Does the extension of the arm matter as much in foil as saber?", or, "Does the tempo of the footwork make as much a difference?".

[Purple Fencer]

I'll throw this out (and will be waiting for Inq to correct me!)...

In foil...if you're advancing toward me, arm in the guard position...I;m standing there like an idiot...we both lunge at the same time, no blade contact, and land valid.....simultaneous attack, no touch.

Same actions in sabre? As long as your advance is continuous, your touch because you're the aggressor...

Footwork does seem to count more, as long as you keep moving...

[noodle]

thats not how i would call it

foil right of way is more open and loose, allowing for interpretation. the box timings tightened things up though.
sabre right of way is strict and tight nowadays.

foil advance lunge requires the arm to be extending before the end of the advance part.
sabre advance lunge requires the arm to be extending with the start of the advance.

in sabre, the attack can end on the lunge once the foot hits the floor and also can end when the arm finishes extending.
in foil, the attack is not dependant on the foot in the same way.

[Boo Boo]

Originally Posted by noodle

foil right of way is more open and loose, allowing for interpretation. the box timings tightened things up though.
sabre right of way is strict and tight nowadays.

The new timings have done a bit, but not a lot to tighten foil timings up... main thing it has done is reduce flick attacks.

Originally Posted by noodle

foil advance lunge requires the arm to be extending before the end of the advance part.
sabre advance lunge requires the arm to be extending with the start of the advance.

In foil, hand should lead the foot in timing.

Originally Posted by noodle

in sabre, the attack can end on the lunge once the foot hits the floor and also can end when the arm finishes extending.
in foil, the attack is not dependant on the foot in the same way.

In foil, the attack is dependent on the foot - the hit should arrive before the foot hits the ground (unless you are breaking time and have made your opponent parry etc.)

I thought the main difference came because of the cutting action in sabre - so only the final cut has priority. Whereas in foil, the attacker has priority providing the point is extending towards the target (within a step, lunge or step-lunge movement). But I could be wrong there...

Boo

[catstance]

I'm interested in hearing an official answer (or whoever can claim so) to this...there are quite a few blurry/contradicting points mentioned above....

[rsy]

Originally Posted by noodle

foil advance lunge requires the arm to be extending before the end of the advance part.
sabre advance lunge requires the arm to be extending with the start of the advance.

Not so. t.75 says:

2. An attack with a step-forward-lunge is correctly carried out:
— as a simple attack (cf. t.8) when the arm is extending before the completion of the step-forward and when the touch arrives at the latest at the end of the lunge;
— as a compound attack (cf. t.8) when, with the arm extending in the correct forming of the first feint (cf. t.77) during the step-forward, the touch arrives at the latest at the end of the lunge.

The step-forward attack in sabre is good as long as the extension begins at any time before the end of the step-forward. This is the same as in foil where t.56 says:

3. The attack with a advance-lunge or a advance-flèche is correctly executed when the extending of the arm precedes the end of the step forward and the initiation of the lunge or the flèche.

I don't know what the original text of the FIE rules says in French, but it would be easier to understand the rules if an effort was made to use the same words to express consistent concepts, but the 3 terms, "before the completion", "during" and "preced the end" are all synonomous, so I guess that is good enough.

Originally Posted by noodle

in sabre, the attack can end on the lunge once the foot hits the floor and also can end when the arm finishes extending.

I am not sure what you mean by this. If in the attack (that is in the lunge or step-forward lunge) the arm is fully extended before the front foot has hit the floor, you aren't saying that the attack ended upon the arm's full extension, are you?

-r

[Inquartata]

From observation alone, I would say that the difference is that in sabre most refs actually try to require that the arm be extending when determining the attack; in foil most refs seem to go almost solely by forward motion. Attacks can be carried out with the arm held back, point aimed at the sky or the floor or off to one side, and are called valid.

I knew a foilist who consistently won touches with an "attack" in which he actually drew his arm way back while lunging, and only when his front foot hit would he extend violently to thrust; that is, his weapon and body were moving in opposite directions, and his guard was by his hip when the lunge ended, only to lance out immediately thereafter. And this wasn't a thing that a few refs awarded, it was a workhorse action for him through tournament after tournament.

OTOH, at least foil seems to be called the same way from month to month. In sabre the consensus modes seem to change, sometimes radically, between NACs...

[oso97]

Originally Posted by Inquartata

In sabre the consensus modes seem to change, sometimes radically, between NACs...

... depending upon who the FOC is and how they want to see the action called...

[Boo Boo]

Originally Posted by Inquartata

From observation alone, I would say that the difference is that in sabre most refs actually try to require that the arm be extending when determining the attack; in foil most refs seem to go almost solely by forward motion.

Not in my experience.

Originally Posted by Inquartata

Attacks can be carried out with the arm held back, point aimed at the sky or the floor or off to one side, and are called valid.

A foilist can do this, but it's success depends on what the opponent does - if they try to parry it or just stick their arm out into the final movement, then the point goes to the (unconventional) attacker. There are opportunities for attack on preparation, but often (by the time the defeinder has seen and acted upon it) that opportunity has passed...

Originally Posted by Inquartata

I knew a foilist who consistently won touches with an "attack" in which he actually drew his arm way back while lunging, and only when his front foot hit would he extend violently to thrust; that is, his weapon and body were moving in opposite directions, and his guard was by his hip when the lunge ended, only to lance out immediately thereafter. And this wasn't a thing that a few refs awarded, it was a workhorse action for him through tournament after tournament.

Must have been because of how his opponents reacted to him...

Boo

[kalivor]

In sabre, tempo is tighter and the cut is part of the attack -- making the extension a more important aspect of the attack, from a certain standpoint.

In foil, as has been mentioned, the arm must merely be extending -- there's no minimum angle, and no cutting action involved in the attack. Having the point "threaten" target is usually interpreted liberally. This allows for a more leisurely extension, which can sometimes be subtle. Or sometimes interpreted by some as meaning that the arm is unimportant, and forward motion is sufficient, which is untrue.

[KShan5[PrFC]]

For attack in prep in sabre, the defender must attack into the opponents preparation before they start the attack; in foil the defender must hit his opponent before they start their attack.

Also, the attack can end in sabre on the front foot, or a failed cut; in foil, it's not usually called at least, that the front foot ends the attack.

[I_luv_saber]

Originally Posted by rsy

I am not sure what you mean by this. If in the attack (that is in the lunge or step-forward lunge) the arm is fully extended before the front foot has hit the floor, you aren't saying that the attack ended upon the arm's full extension, are you?

-r

Well... to a point. I was taught you should extend your arm, but not lock (fully extend) the arm, until the moment you intend to hit.

[noodle]

Originally Posted by Boo Boo

The new timings have done a bit, but not a lot to tighten foil timings up... main thing it has done is reduce flick attacks.

you really can't tell me that the new timings haven't done much to tighten it up. everything is much more defensive, there are some people who rely on the counterattack, etc..

Originally Posted by Boo Boo

In foil, hand should lead the foot in timing.

In foil, the attack is dependent on the foot - the hit should arrive before the foot hits the ground (unless you are breaking time and have made your opponent parry etc.)

theres nothing specific in the foil section about the foot and the attack's dependance on it like there is in the sabre sections.

Originally Posted by Boo Boo

I thought the main difference came because of the cutting action in sabre - so only the final cut has priority. Whereas in foil, the attacker has priority providing the point is extending towards the target (within a step, lunge or step-lunge movement). But I could be wrong there...

you can do point attacks in sabre too. so there's no specific dependance on the cut. similar enough in sabre, extending, advancing until a final lunge. happens all the time.

Originally Posted by rsy

Not so. t.75 says:

2. An attack with a step-forward-lunge is correctly carried out:
— as a simple attack (cf. t.8) when the arm is extending before the completion of the step-forward and when the touch arrives at the latest at the end of the lunge;
— as a compound attack (cf. t.8) when, with the arm extending in the correct forming of the first feint (cf. t.77) during the step-forward, the touch arrives at the latest at the end of the lunge.

The step-forward attack in sabre is good as long as the extension begins at any time before the end of the step-forward. This is the same as in foil where t.56 says:

3. The attack with a advance-lunge or a advance-flèche is correctly executed when the extending of the arm precedes the end of the step forward and the initiation of the lunge or the flèche.

indeed, i haven't looked at the rulebook in a while, but its like you say it is. wonder why i thought it was like i said it... i'm pretty sure i wasn't drunk. oh well, makes it less confusing at least.

Originally Posted by rsy

I am not sure what you mean by this. If in the attack (that is in the lunge or step-forward lunge) the arm is fully extended before the front foot has hit the floor, you aren't saying that the attack ended upon the arm's full extension, are you?

no, not exactly. and note i was way too lazy to be very specific and quote details on the things i said. to use an example -- if you go advance, start the lunge, complete extension-whiff, finish lunge lunge, and hit on the end of the lunge, thats not one attack. in foil, if you go advance, start the lunge, complete extension-hit nothing, end the lunge, hit, you're probably gonna get that attack.

[prototoast]

Originally Posted by KShan5[PrFC]

For attack in prep in sabre, the defender must attack into the opponents preparation before they start the attack; in foil the defender must hit his opponent before they start their attack.

Also, the attack can end in sabre on the front foot, or a failed cut; in foil, it's not usually called at least, that the front foot ends the attack.

That's probably the best summary of it I've seen in this thread.

[Sword Mistress]

see if you guys fenced epee there would be no need for this frivilous debate....

(wooo i used a two dollar word!!! yaaaaaay!!! )

[noodle]

Originally Posted by prototoast

That's probably the best summary of it I've seen in this thread.

agreed....

[Boo Boo]

Originally Posted by noodle

you really can't tell me that the new timings haven't done much to tighten it up. everything is much more defensive, there are some people who rely on the counterattack, etc..

If people don't fix the hit properly, but it hasn't tightened up the interpretation much - the interpretation is still the same...

Originally Posted by noodle

theres nothing specific in the foil section about the foot and the attack's dependance on it like there is in the sabre sections.

If you go foot first, in foil, you are still going to have problems.

Originally Posted by noodle

in foil, if you go advance, start the lunge, complete extension-hit nothing, end the lunge, hit, you're probably gonna get that attack.

If your front foot hits the ground on the lunge, in foil, you have lost priority of your attack - unless you have broken time successfully (i.e. made your opponent swipe for the blade). It is dependent on what you opponent does...

Boo

[Feltan]

Originally Posted by Sword Mistress

see if you guys fenced epee there would be no need for this frivilous debate....

(wooo i used a two dollar word!!! yaaaaaay!!! )

Perhaps you are correct. However, if you fenced foil or saber you might understand the debate.

Regards,
Feltan

[Sword Mistress]

hehe oh you sabreists... always assuming we're stupid.

heh, man, i was KIDDING!!! you know, joke? ha ha?

i do understand the debate. i have discussions with all levels of coaches and fencers about timings and right of way and all that crap.

don't think that just because i play dumb, and coincidentally fence epee, that i am completely ignorant. us epeeists have things to be said and they are not usually about the intelligence of sabreists either.