finger cuts

[afc fencer]

How many saber fencers use finger cuts and why?

[servdragoon]

You get more control and expose less target area by using your fingers when making a cut. Sometimes it is easy to get wild and make big cuts that leave you vulnerable. Smoothe,clean,crisp cuts delivered by the fingers, partly, prevent that from happening. Finger cuts refine the cut making it more precise.

<small>[ 07-21-2002, 01:52 AM: Message edited by: servdragoon ]</small>

[afc fencer]

I don't agree. It is always easy to get wild and make big cuts using fingers or not using fingers. In saber u don't need to be very precise.

[touche turtle]

I'm confused. Are we talking about using the fingers to do saber cuts? Or saber cuts to the fingers. I thought the hand and fingers are no longer target area in saber.

I know of some "old timer" saberist who cut to the hand and fingers and it is quite annoying. And I'm sure it is quite useful to know how to do. Seeing the fickle nature of the FIE, USFA, etc., I'm sure finger/hand cuts will no doubt return (again) as a valid target area someday.

[afc fencer]

We are talking about using fingers to do saber cuts.
Fingers were never target, but the back of the hand use to be. The reason it is no longer target area is because their was a problem with the overglove touching the bellgaurd. So i don't think it would ever be target agin.

[Craig]

I am also of the opinion that you should use "finger cuts". If you want to be good in sabre, then you need to be very precise!

The fewer/smaller muscles that you are using for an action, the quicker that action will be. If you go for a stop-cut and you are using your wrist and arm to deliver the cut then it's going to be slower than if you use just the fingers to deliver the cut. Also, if you are going for a head cut on the attack and you're using your arm to deliver the cut, and you notice a parry coming, then you will not be able to change lines as quickly as you would using your fingers to manipulate and deliver the cuts.

(Note - You would still have to extend, but the delivery is the final cut that you make.)

There is more target to hit in sabre, but you should still strive for precision.

Editor's note: I am not a competitive sabre fencer. I've competed in the past and trained sabre in the past year, but am still a foil fencer.

I'd like to hear/see some true sabrists chime in. Susan? Peach?

Cheers,
Craig

<small>[ 07-21-2002, 08:38 AM: Message edited by: webmaster ]</small>

[Peach]

I was taught to make the action of the cut with my fingers only.

I love sabre fencers who don't make cuts with their fingers. In general, their actions are perceptibly slower and more rigid, and I can often hit many of them them in tempo because they are preparing. I don't like them because they tend to finish way too hard and inevitably land on top of my back shoulder.

I will say that I haven't observed many sabre fencers who make "fingers-only" cuts. That is, the shoulder, arm, and wrist are always involved--usually in a very relaxed fashion and with a smooth forward motion. But the best sabre fencers seem to finish their attacks with a very precise squeeze of the fingers. And it is indeed precise. A hand touch as your opponent is lunging, for instance, takes great precision of the fingers and complete relaxation of the arm.

I'm not ruling out a good ban-de-rol (sp?) which is made with the whole arm in a fluid relaxed motion and leaves my opponents feeling as if they have been disemboweled.

[afc fencer]

All saber fencer prepare if u dont some one will take your blade. Timing is the most important thing in saber. If u watch Becca Ward fence u will see that she prepares alot but when she prepares she is out of distance. People try to hit her in prep. they miss she hits them. Or they do nothing and she finishes her attack. Excuse me when i said u don't need to be precise. I ment when making an attack. When making an attack you don't need to be precise. In making a stop cut u do have to be precise but i don't see how fingers would make it any more precise
How does using fingers make u faster? u still have to u extend with your arm.
You can change lines without using fingers but if your arm is stiff you can not change lines. But when i make a cut my arm is very relaxed And agin i think distance and timing are more important. When you lunge if your timing and distance is correct no one should be able to parry you.
I find that i can take the blade easily with most people who use fingers.

<small>[ 07-21-2002, 10:44 AM: Message edited by: afc fencer ]</small>

[Peach]

Oh, gosh, I'm sorry. I thought you were asking a genuine question, not a rhetorical one. By all means don't use finger cuts if you don't want to.

[servdragoon]

<small>[ 07-21-2002, 01:50 PM: Message edited by: servdragoon ]</small>

[servdragoon]

afc, ever notice how fast a piano player's fingers move? Imagine how impossible it would be to play good music on the piano if the pianist mainly used his shoulders or elbows to play with his hands and not his/her fingers. It would look really dumb too, and we dont want to look dumb we want to look pretty.
It's the same thing with sabre, if you want to learn to play good use your fingers. Even if you dont understand why, just try it, your cuts will be much quicker because you are using quicker muscles. Its very obvious when changing lines. If you feint from head to flank with your shoulder it is slower than if you change with you fingers.
Has your coach ever told you to "stay in the cut!!" From staying in the cut the versatility(parries, beats, stop cuts, feints, direct attacks) offered by staying in the cut saves time on what attack you choose. as opposed to bringing your arm all the way back and using your bigger shoulder muscles, you stay in the cut and use your fingers to attack.

<small>[ 07-21-2002, 02:14 PM: Message edited by: servdragoon ]</small>

[sabreur]

Along with all the other reasons for executing a cut by closing your hand ("finger cuts" is a little misleading--the action is a slight push with the thumb, along with a pulling back with the middle, ring and pinky fingers), you hit a lot more lightly--which is nicer for your opponent, and allows you to parry more quickly.

Clubbing the sabre slows you down, and tightens you up. You also tend to open yourself up for stop cuts--people who club the sabre almost inevitably lift their forearm from the elbow as they prepare.

You also, as I've noted, tend to hit like a brick, which doesn't exactly endear you to your opponents.

Manipulating the sabre correctly is simply good, elegant fencing.

Cheers, MR

[Craig]

You're in ATL, right? Why not call over to Nellya and fence sabre one night with the Jacobsons or w/David D.? You can ask them about what you mean by 'finger cuts' and get some good bouting in also.

I have not seen Becca fence, but at Nellya you've got several very good WS fencers on the senior points list. (The Jacobsons, Amelia Gaillard, Christina Crane, Sarah Parker, Nhi, and Susan Cox are all on the national points list.) Don't waste a great local resource!

(This is one thing that, at least in GA has been a problem. Clubs don't seem to fence with each other even though they're in the same city.)

Cheers,
Craig

<small>[ 07-22-2002, 01:42 PM: Message edited by: webmaster ]</small>

[sean]

Definitely watch Becca fence, and watch where the actual cut comes from. She uses her arm and wrist to establish position, but the cut comes from the fingers.

Sean

[afc fencer]

Sorry u guys misunderstood me. Someone said the fencers who do not use fingers tend to prepare alot. The point i was making with becca is the she prepares alot but prepares out of distance as to wether or not she uses fingers i dont know.
I sorta use my fingers to cut, I use a slight push with my tumb. When i first started saber my old coach told me to do a cut from fingers i did't make since to me and still doesn't.
I'm not going to change he way i fence. I have a coach that i bealive in alot and he tells me not to use fingers so i wont.
I didn't think the Nellya folks useds fingers. I don't rember joe using them when he first came to my club. Ill ask him tonight.

<small>[ 07-22-2002, 02:09 PM: Message edited by: afc fencer ]</small>

[Craig]

You've got a coach that you trust and like, so definately go with what your coach is telling you.

Just so that I can visualize what you are talking about better, are you talking about making the final cut with a wrist action vs. 'snapping' the hand closed and pushing w/the thumb?

(Here's where streaming video would be a good feature!)

Cheers,
Craig

[Saber-Psycho]

Finger cuts are very common in the top fencers.
Mainly for stop cuts and feints. If you don't use finger cuts,but cut from the wrist, the really good fencers can usually get you in preparation.
For afc fencer, I disagree. I think that you should always be precise when you fence. I don't see how it would be easier to beat someone's blade when they use their fingers. It just doesn't make any sense

[counter riposte]

Oops.

See below....

<small>[ 07-22-2002, 06:17 PM: Message edited by: counter riposte ]</small>

[counter riposte]

Have to agree with the group here,

Let's weigh the advantages and disadvantages of clutching your weapon like a battle ax. When you are fencing sabre, your cut is everything. If you are using your full arm to cut, (Like I used to) you will:

1. Come down on your opponent's shoulder like a ton of bricks, leaving you without a fencing partner.

2. Be incredibly easy to spot on the preparation.

3. Be more tense than you really need to be.

4. Be slaughtered on the beat-attack because you are too tense to parry.

5. You will not be able to feel when you have been parried and will continue to force yourself through your opponent's parry even though it is not in time.

6. There is no way to get an effective counter riposte if you get screwed on your first intention.

7. Your movements to parry will have to be more exaggerated because you are so tense.

8. Your reaction time is slower, so you may not pick up the parry.

9. You will not be able to feint effectively, because your elbow will be turned instead of your wrist.

10. Stop cuts will be impossible for you.

11. You will not be able to change lines, if your original line of attack is closed out.

12 And here is the one advantage, it will seem more natural to you....

When starting sabre, it may seem natural to want to hold your weapon like a 15 pound Roman Battle sword. Unfortunately, this is where injuries come from and how inexperienced fencers get disembowled. Relax on the strip and kill your opponent by figuratively, not literally. Otherwise, you won't have many people to fence later.

<small>[ 07-22-2002, 06:22 PM: Message edited by: counter riposte ]</small>

[135711]

finger cuts, that would be difficult i think, you would have to do a lot of practicing. here's what i recommend. hang a button from a string from the ceiling. and using your weapon, lunge at it until you hit it. then you would be ready for a finger cut. what do you think, is this a good exercise?
anyone who would use a finger cut would be probably looking to disarm the sabre from the fencer. now i want to address the spellling issus.