finger cuts

**Inquartata** · 07-22-2002 08:13 PM

Ah, a complex subject. Of course a light cut with fingers only is best where possible; OTOH how do you catch a blade in quinte and then riposte to the head, say, with just the fingers? And finger cuts are a lot more difficult if you hold the grip by the very pommel end in the modern fashion---the wrist insists on getting involved...

However, anyone who says precision is unimportant in sabre probably hasn't a lot of luck in stopcutting a moving wrist on the fly.

**afc fencer** · 07-22-2002 09:31 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />However, anyone who says precision is unimportant in sabre probably hasn't a lot of luck in stopcutting a moving wrist on the fly.
<hr /></blockquote> <blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by afc fencer:
 Excuse me when i said u don't need to be precise. I ment when making an attack. When making an attack you don't need to be precise. In making a stop cut u do have to be precise [QB]<hr /></blockquote> <blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by counter riposte:
[QB]
1. Come down on your opponent's shoulder like a ton of bricks, leaving you without a fencing partner.

2. Be incredibly easy to spot on the preparation.

3. Be more tense than you really need to be.

4. Be slaughtered on the beat-attack because you are too tense to parry.

5. You will not be able to feel when you have been parried and will continue to force yourself through your opponent's parry even though it is not in time.

6. There is no way to get an effective counter riposte if you get screwed on your first intention.

7. Your movements to parry will have to be more exaggerated because you are so tense.

8. Your reaction time is slower, so you may not pick up the parry.

9. You will not be able to feint effectively, because your elbow will be turned instead of your wrist.

10. Stop cuts will be impossible for you.

11. You will not be able to change lines, if your original line of attack is closed out.

12 And here is the one advantage, it will seem more natural to you....

<hr /></blockquote>When i extend my arm is not tense at all. I hold my grip pretty lightly.
If u get caught in preperation its a distance problem.
Stop cuts impossible for me? Thats how i get half my points!
I feint with my wrist not my elbow

Craig i think i make my final cut with the wrist.

[ 07-23-2002, 01:55 AM: Message edited by: afc fencer ]

**sabreur** · 07-23-2002 02:18 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Inquartata:
Ah, a complex subject. Of course a light cut with fingers only is best where possible; OTOH how do you catch a blade in quinte and then riposte to the head, say, with just the fingers? And finger cuts are a lot more difficult if you hold the grip by the very pommel end in the modern fashion---the wrist insists on getting involved...

However, anyone who says precision is unimportant in sabre probably hasn't a lot of luck in stopcutting a moving wrist on the fly.<hr /></blockquote>Quart:

The final action of the cut is executed with the fingers (as you in fact well know)--this does not mean that the arm and shoulder don't have their roles--for instance, my current master teaches that your elbow should come across to your belly button in a quarte parry, which is different from rotate-the-forearm-across four parry I was taught years ago.

In the action you mention, five parry-head cut, finger play is vital. After the parry, your hand immediately moves down and forward--you use your fingers to rotate the blade back and around so you clear your opponent's blade.

I've never seen a sabre fencer "pommel" his weapon--I hold mine in a sort of modified "shake hands" grip, with my index finger close to the bell and the base of my pinky right at the bottom of the handle.

By the way, has anyone else noticed that a lot of the new sabre handles are about an inch shorter than the older ones? Don't like that at all.

MR

[ 07-23-2002, 06:19 AM: Message edited by: sabreur ]

**Peach** · 07-23-2002 03:49 AM

Quite a few of the young men in sabre hold their weapons with the pommel nut nested in their palms, at least part of the time. I use that grip myself on occasion, shifting the weapon forwards when I want to trade a little less balance in the weapon for an extra couple of centimeters of reach.

**sabreur** · 07-23-2002 04:21 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Peach:
Quite a few of the young men in sabre hold their weapons with the pommel nut nested in their palms, at least part of the time. I use that grip myself on occasion, shifting the weapon forwards when I want to trade a little less balance in the weapon for an extra couple of centimeters of reach.<hr /></blockquote>Delia,

With your fingers outside the guard? Ouch!!!

MR

**Peach** · 07-23-2002 04:52 AM

Hadn't thought of that! I guess I don't get hit on the hand that much. Or I don't remember it, which is more likely now that back of the hand isn't target.

I can shrug off a lot of pain if it doesn't result in a touch--I'm always finding big blue marks on my front leg after an evening of bouting and I have NO recollection of how it happened.

I don't use that grip much in any case because I avoid like the plague any added torque to my elbow, having spend two years of my early fencing life wearing straps and applying ice packs.

**veeco** · 07-23-2002 09:28 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by sabreur:
 <blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Peach:
Quite a few of the young men in sabre hold their weapons with the pommel nut nested in their palms, at least part of the time. I use that grip myself on occasion, shifting the weapon forwards when I want to trade a little less balance in the weapon for an extra couple of centimeters of reach.<hr /></blockquote>Delia,

With your fingers outside the guard? Ouch!!!

MR<hr /></blockquote>Maybe there's a possibility to use the guard as an epee fencer with a French grip would as a protection.

By this I mean that the part of the guard that goes down to the end of the handle would not be of any protective usage, but the larger part where the blade comes out of would. Of course this would assume that you use your fingers a lot to control your cuts as any large movement from the arm and elbow would then expose your hand.

**three_hundred_fifty_five** · 07-23-2002 10:18 AM

To answer your original question "How many saber fencers use finger cuts and why?", I feel I have to answer it with a question, why are you asking that?
Is not the finger cut, as you have described it, a normal part of anyone's saber game?
For those who were trained properly know that the fingers play an important role in blade direction and control in cut attacks. Otherwise, you are sabre fencing Neanderthal-style.

**three_hundred_fifty_five** · 07-23-2002 10:31 AM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by afc fencer:
... I sorta use my fingers to cut, I use a slight push with my tumb. When i first started saber my old coach told me to do a cut from fingers i did't make since to me and still doesn't....<hr /></blockquote>That's the old school way, which I think is correct (I don't know of a new school way). The final motion is done with the fingers so you don't hurt your opponent. As an example, in a basic lunge attack, if you did everything (old school style) except for the final finger snap motion, the blade would be a couple of centimetres above the target. Then, when you perform the thumb pressing thingy, the blade would come down onto the target.

**Inquartata** · 07-23-2002 07:14 PM

I've noticed a lot of...for want of a better term, "posting" of the sabre grip in competitive fencing latterly. The pommel rests in the palm, towards the heel of the hand, but the fingers generally stay inside the guard, if only just. Because the wider part of the bell is now so far forward ( and usually the blade is quite horizontal---this is an attacking grip, not a defensive one ) the fingers are safe for the most part. When on defense the grip is shifted back to the traditional placement. I sometimes do this, too, and have had no problems.

OTOH, maybe I just shrug off hits there without noticing---I am one of those 'oldtimers' who remember the days of nonelectric sabre, when the fingers were indeed valid target, and being tagged there was not uncommon...

**Inquartata** · 07-23-2002 07:25 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by sabreur:
[QUOTE]Quart:

The final action of the cut is executed with the fingers (as you in fact well know)--this does not mean that the arm and shoulder don't have their roles--<hr /></blockquote>Bah, how DARE you interfere with my casuistry?! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

**oiuyt** · 07-24-2002 08:29 AM

When I first started fencing sabre I routinely held my weapon with my pinky outside the bell. This had absolutely nothing to do with looking for added reach. The first time I fenced, I used a conventional grip and had my thumb bashed into the inside of my bell a couple of times and figured that if I looped my finger around the bottom of the bell that my hand wouldn't slide.

When I first bought my own weapons they had very large, heavy pommels and the balance felt better with (and there was room for) my pinky AND ring finger outside the bell resting on the pommel. I never had a problem with getting these fingers smashed.

I have, since, reverted to a somewhat more conventional grip where all of my fingers are inside the curve of the bell. I'm about as far back as possible with my fingers all still on the grip part of the weapon and inside the bell.

Another advantage of having a finger (or even moreso when I had 2 fingers) outside of the bell on the pommel is that the grip feels fairly similar to a pistol grip. Given that I was in the process of converting from epee, this grip felt very natural to me.

I would not suggest hanging fingers outside of the bell, but from my personal experience during a bit over a year of doing so, done correctly (at least with the style I used at the time) there wasn't an obvious drawback.

Before people start making complaints about either the ouch factor, or claim that it opens the bottom of the weapon arm and makes parries there impossible, I didn't find myself having problems with either of these. Even against people who fenced me routinely and knew how I was holding the weapon the bottom of the arm did not become a primary target. The exact parrying position might need modification, but these shots can be defended against successfully.

-B

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