>>I saw this one and chatted off-list with Rez before I commented so I
>>could be certain that this was somebody else's opinion before I
>>responded as strongly as I feel I must.
Thanks Jeff for making sure the post I forwarded (from the archive) wasn't
mine before responding strongly to it. I'm not sure who the original poster
was but, the reply part was from Master Lurz. I posted it because I thought
his comments on the Passata sotto would tie in with the list's ongoing
conversation on that subject. However, I wish I had snipped the rest of that
post before forwarding it so as to avoid stirring you up. The post was
originally made about five years ago.
>> The Eastern European countries transformed fencing in the
>> latter half of the 20th Century with their emphasis on athleticism
>> and mobility, for example.
According to Master Crosnier this "emphasis on athleticism and mobility,"
began not in Eastern Europe, but rather in Western Europe in the early 20th
Century. I believe the Eastern Europeans took it from there in the mid to
late 20th Century.
>> It is much more accurate to say that they transformed the rules
>> (read abandoned): priority given to bent arm attacks, priority to
>> attacks from out of distance against the blade in line, priority
>> awarded on the basis of foot movement, flicks, etc. In addition
>> athleticism, while being emphasized, also was allowed to serve
>> as a substitute for blade work.
> The second part "It is much more accurate..." is a load of
> bollocks. It's a malicious smear of an entire class of fencing masters.
I think the reason is seems to be malicious is because the word "abandoned"
was used when in fact many fencing masters of both Eastern and Western
origin have continued to emphasize the more classic form and not all
referees call priority as mentioned above.
My own fencing master, Robert Scranton was a sport fencing master and the
former President of the United States Fencing Coaches Association. He was a
student of many different masters and received his Fencing Master's Diploma
in 1980 at the American Fencing Academy which was an official fencing
masters training program offered at Cornell University, under the tutelage
of the famous French Fencing Master and author, Maitre Jean-Jacques Gillet,
and was certified by the USFCA that same year. His primary training was in
Classical French and this formed the foundation upon which he added with
other styles. He also studied Classical Italian, Hungarian, and various
Eastern and Western International styles in a quest to develop a complete
style which would be competitive in any environment, but particularly in
modern sport fencing. He coached international students and had a successful
competition record as did his students. However, in spite of his major
participation in the modern sport fencing realm, he also respected my
classical preference and trained me in the classical French style. He
mentioned (at a USFCA sport fencing coaches' clinic which I attended) how he
thought that the revival in Classical Fencing, which he felt was primarily
due to the efforts of Masters Ramon Martinez, Adam Crown, Dr. Gaugler and
Nick Evangelista was a good thing. He spoke very highly of these gentlemen
and of their leadership in the classical fencing community.
About the origin of the flick in International fencing: During my
apprenticeship with Master Scranton we talked at length about the rules and
how they use to be interpreted and how they were being interpreted today. He
told me many interesting stories about his experiences in international
fencing circles and about the different styles being used by different
countries. He said that one year the Russians came out at the Olympics with
a totally revised style of fencing which focused primarily on the Flick and
won a lot of medals that year. He said that all of the other countries'
Olympic fencing coaches and teams scrambled over the next four years to
adapt to the Russians new game. When it can to modern sport fencing, Master
Scranton believed in adapting ones game to whatever and wherever
international fencing was going.
>Just speaking about the limited number of Eastern European masters I
>know well...
Jeff has been privy to more of the Eastern European coaches and referees
than I have and has apparently seen a lot of cleaner refereeing than I.
However, I must add that I have seen in my USFA division in particular and
in "some" regional, national and international events calls being made as
mentioned above by Master Lurz. Jeff no doubt will be quick to add that bad
refereeing as well as bad fencing and bad coaching have been with us forever
in all areas of fencing, including classical, but that they are only
individual instances, not an example of modern fencing on the whole.
I think the trend toward what Master Lurz indicated is growing. However I
hope Jeff is right and that my opinion has been influenced only by a much
smaller arena of modern fencing. I personally prefer the consistency I can
create in my own salle by adhering strictly to fencing as it was done in the
mid 1800s. When you recreate the fencing of a very specific time in history
you do not have to worry about constantly changing rules which in my opinion
are often based more on politics and money than anything rational. The
classical rules do not change nor are they subject to interpretation.
>The names I mentioned above are real maestros who have frequently fenced
>at championship levels themselves, and produced national and
>international champions. Some of them come from families with multiple
>generations of fencing tradition, rather than getting a diploma from an
>academic course.
My Master, Robert Scranton, received his Master's diploma in an academic
setting. However it was an arduous "academic" and practical training program
at the American Fencing Academy at Cornell University, in which he was
required to fence all morning, attended coaching instruction all afternoon,
and then coach Cornell's fencing team in the evenings, five days every week
for about four years. On weekends he was required to travel to various clubs
around the state to referee tournaments and give lessons. After being tested
by the board of fencing masters at the American Fencing Academy and
receiving his diploma there he then tested before a board of fencing masters
of the USFCA/AII and received a second fencing master diploma from them. He
was successful NCAA Division I Fencing Coach and an Olympic Team Coach.
Competitively he took first place in his age group 4 times and was 2nd
overall twice in the US Nationals. He placed in the top three in the USFCA
Fencing Master's Championships in an individual weapon on nine occasions and
was twice a member of the USFCA Fencing Masters team representing the United
States at the AAI World Championships. His former students have included a
FIE Junior World Finalist, a two-time Junior Olympic Bronze Medalist, and
many USFA Divisional Champions. Forgive me for going on and on about him,
but we lost him last year to cancer and have not yet gotten over it. For
more information about him you can read the memorial I wrote for The
SwordMaster (USFCA publication) last year. A copy is on my website at:
http://msfencing.org/memorial.html
>It would do well for people intent on slandering them
>to instead focus on improving their own teaching, and try to achieve
>even a tiny, tiny fraction of the others' accomplishments. The
>thin-skinned population I see in CF, so sensitive to "insult", would be
>well advised to not indulge in insult themselves.
Good advice Jeff. However, I think until we hear different, we should give
Master Lurz the benefit of the doubt. I suspect that he and his students
have an impressive competitive record in USFA events, possibly even in
national and international FIE competitions.
And I'm sure Mr. Lurz's fencing master, Dr. Gaugler, has a very impressive
competitive record because he was trained by several great Italian champions
which include; Giorgio Pessina who was a member of the 1924, 1928, and 1932
Italian Olympic teams and Aldo Nadi, who amateur and professional champion
in foil, sabre, and epee, who won three Olympic gold medals and one silver
medal in the 1920 Olympics. (His brother Nedo won five Gold medals in
fencing in the 1920 Olympics). I'm sure Master Gaugler has produced national
champions. I used to know the names of several USFCA sport fencing masters
who had graduated from Master Gaugler's Fencing master program. Seems like
some of them coached at Westside in CA.
Maybe some of the Italian masters and fencers on this list can help us with
this information.
Blessings,
Rez Johnson
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