FIE SEMI Commission Opinions concerning FIE COngress recommendations.

[pkt]

Originally Posted by DHCJr

Unless I write this in Word and then, copy it to Fencing 101, I can’t get any of the accents to come out. So lamé comes out lame. At least I haven’t found an easy way. In word I just do Control’, then e and I get lamé. There is sometime trouble when Word thinks it knows what you mean and corrects my spelling by removing the ‘. I just tell it no, and it sometimes listens to me.

Just type
lame'
That's close enough and people do understand.
Better than having no accent.
PK

[Frank Pratt]

No one has commented on killing off the white light for good. I personally like the idea. It will make foil bouts go quicker and will make the referee's calls easier to understand. I have seen many beginner foil bouts go on longer than epee bouts due to hats called for one or two white lights. It seems illogical that you can use right-of-way to benefit from hitting off-target (i.e. blocking your opponent's on-target touch.) I think we would see immediate improvement in the foilist's point control, which might actually improve safety.

It will also be easier (and cheaper) for organizers if foil is possible on non-conductive strips. New scoring boxes will also hopefully be a little cheaper since the manufactorers won't have to include whilte lights at all on a 3-weapon machine.

I actually think this is a good step towards making foil a little more spectator-friendly. Does anyone else agree, or have I just opened up a big can of worms?....

[DHCJr]

Orod, I said easy way. I like PKT idea.

Frank, a comment on 2 of your post. You have to find some way that doesn't transmit. Maybe in about 100 years, they may get into the 20th century and use transmitters. Remember the Epee tip design is over 100 years old and has changed significantly in all that time. Using transmitters is illegal as far as the FIE is concerned.

If they get rid of the white lights, how will they test Foils at the beginning of the bout. The white lights will need to stay as part of the circuit. They will need to go back in time where both the off-target and on-target can come on.

[OROD]

Originally Posted by Frank Pratt

No one has commented on killing off the white light for good. I personally like the idea. It will make foil bouts go quicker and will make the referee's calls easier to understand.

Getting rid of the off-target light is a bad idea. It's there for a reason, to encourage right-of-way... which is what foil is all about. You, as a foil fencer, need to respect an oponents attack and not be rewarded for simple getting lucky because he hits you in the middle of the forehead and your dumb counterattack hit him in his chest.

It seems illogical that you can use right-of-way to benefit from hitting off-target (i.e. blocking your opponent's on-target touch.)

You're not making any sense dude.

I think we would see immediate improvement in the foilist's point control, which might actually improve safety.

I think we would see immediate improvement in the foilists non-weapon arm control, which would continue the trend by the FIE towards making foil something completely unrecognizable from what it is now. Foil will devolve into a game of blocking attacks with your non-weapon arm... which the FIE will then use as excuse to make the non-weapon arm target area... which will cause new problems, which will cause new rules to fix them, etc, etc.

It will also be easier (and cheaper) for organizers if foil is possible on non-conductive strips. New scoring boxes will also hopefully be a little cheaper since the manufactorers won't have to include whilte lights at all on a 3-weapon machine.

Yes, lets destroy Foil fencing to make it cheaper.

I actually think this is a good step towards making foil a little more spectator-friendly. Does anyone else agree, or have I just opened up a big can of worms?....

Taking out the off-target light would have severe repercusions on foil as we know it, some of which we can predict and some we cant. Seriously, the FIE needs to stop dicking around with Foil like RIGHT NOW.



.

[Joe biebel]

Originally Posted by steyr762khx

Why all the buisness with covering epeeists with lameness when they're going to institute instant replay?.

One extremely important aspect that I see no easy fix for is: stopping the bout (with a touch to floor) and annuling opponents touches without: either a conductive piste or a conductive uniform. I think you would need one or the other. My experience with foil with the new lockout timing is that it is highly frustrating without metallic pistes. You make a nice attack that arrives and your opponents failed parry attempt puts on an off-target light on that keeps your valid light from going on.

Even if they discount the touches scored by floor hits in epee through use of judges or cameras, the number of his that would be "erased" is totally unaceptable. So it's either complete conductive uniform or conductive strip, or perhaps something completely new.

[Moses]

I've only been in this sport for a year now, and I'm beginning to wonder if it was worth it, considering how things are going.

My club services over 100 people, and we just bought a metallic strip.



-Da Mose

[mrbiggs]

For the record, é is most easily done as ALT-130. (Also, keep in mind that other accents are from about 128 to the one fifties.)

I think it's important to keep in mind that Roch is kind of crazy, and that he can propose as much as he wants. The congress needs to vote on it, and they've always been far more thoughtful in what they pass. I'd be very surprised if the FIE Congress passes the epee lamé requirements, as it's a stupid idea.

[esskreemr]

This time, I'd like to see the Federatios step up. Don't implement some crazy scheme until it's tested. If they want to fence that way at the International, fine, go for it. Leave national fencing the way it is. When the bugs are worked out, then go for it if it looks like it's going to stick. We are at a point where we could very well lose a couple years worth of fencers if we are not careful.

[Frank Pratt]

Originally Posted by DHCJr

Frank, a comment on 2 of your post. You have to find some way that doesn't transmit. Maybe in about 100 years, they may get into the 20th century and use transmitters. Remember the Epee tip design is over 100 years old and has changed significantly in all that time. Using transmitters is illegal as far as the FIE is concerned.

Yeah, I was trying to argue against the rule that prohibits transmissions. My understanding is that there are security issues (eg. someone registering or blocking touches from the audience.) I would think that encryption technology is advanced enough to prevent these problems. Come to think of it, though, I guess jamming the machine to prevent touches is the real issue here. I’m not sure if there's a good way to prevent this. Perhaps this has been the roadblock; I know the issue of transmissions has been discussed for years now.

Originally Posted by DHCJr

If they get rid of the white lights, how will they test Foils at the beginning of the bout. The white lights will need to stay as part of the circuit. They will need to go back in time where both the off-target and on-target can come on.

If the white lights (and off-target touches) were eliminated, couldn't foils be tested directly on the opponent's lame (or on the bib, if we end up with electrified bibs,) as in sabre? I might be missing something here, but why would we need to test the white lights if the white lights are no longer used? If I am not mistaken, sabre does not use the white lights for anything nowadays. I don't fence sabre, though, so I could be wrong.

[oso97]

Originally Posted by Frank Pratt

If the white lights (and off-target touches) were eliminated, couldn't foils be tested directly on the opponent's lame (or on the bib, if we end up with electrified bibs,) as in sabre? I might be missing something here, but why would we need to test the white lights if the white lights are no longer used? If I am not mistaken, sabre does not use the white lights for anything nowadays. I don't fence sabre, though, so I could be wrong.

Becuase you'd need to test the spring with a wieght. You'd have to have the wieght hooked into the machine somehow.

Same with epee, only the addition of somehow testing the shim, if the idea for full body lamés goes though.

[Frank Pratt]

Originally Posted by OROD

Getting rid of the off-target light is a bad idea. It's there for a reason, to encourage right-of-way... which is what foil is all about. You, as a foil fencer, need to respect an opponents attack and not be rewarded for simple getting lucky because he hits you in the middle of the forehead and your dumb counterattack hit him in his chest.

I agree that a fencer must respect his/her opponent's ROW. However, I don't think eliminating off-target touches would make it unnecessary to respect your opponent's ROW. It would, however, make it easier to score a quick remise or counterattack in some circumstances (eg. if your opponent's point is not yet near the target area.) This is why I think that eliminating off target would encourage foilists to improve point control. If an opponent obtains ROW and has good point control, his/her opponent will have to respect the priority of this attack.

Originally Posted by OROD

I think we would see immediate improvement in the foilists non-weapon arm control, which would continue the trend by the FIE towards making foil something completely unrecognizable from what it is now. Foil will devolve into a game of blocking attacks with your non-weapon arm... which the FIE will then use as excuse to make the non-weapon arm target area... which will cause new problems, which will cause new rules to fix them, etc, etc.

It is illegal to use the non-weapon arm for anything under the current rules (as far an manipulating, deflecting, or blocking your opponent’s blade or attack, at least.) I would think referees could control this problem by giving cards to fencers who block their target area or use the non-weapon arm to parry. They would also have to pay closer attention to touches that arrive on the non-weapon arm when the arm is blocking the target area (and award the attacker a touch in this case.) Perhaps the commission has foreseen this problem; they are also recommending that it be made illegal to block target area even when you are not near your opponent. I don't know if this proposed rule would be effective, but I do think that enforcing these current rules would prevent the FIE from having to add new rules regarding improper use of the rear arm.

Originally Posted by OROD

Taking out the off-target light would have severe repercusions on foil as we know it, some of which we can predict and some we cant. Seriously, the FIE needs to stop dicking around with Foil like RIGHT NOW.

I can't completely agree or disagree with this as the concept has not yet been tested. I would strongly argue against any rule change being implemented before sufficient testing (eg. the recent rules that came about after very little testing!) The bottom line is that I think the off-target idea is worth a trail run. Some foreseen problems might not be problems, and some unforeseen problems might be easy to fix. If it fails, we abandon the idea at that point. This is how it is supposed to happen, anyway.

You do have a good point about the FIE doing a lot of tinkering with foil lately. Perhaps a major change like this should no be considered until the dust settles a bit from the timing changes.

[Frank Pratt]

Originally Posted by oso97

Because you'd need to test the spring with a weight. You'd have to have the weight hooked into the machine somehow.

Same with epee, only the addition of somehow testing the shim, if the idea for full body lamés goes though.

Ahh, I see. So the white light would flash on and off when the tip is depressed while out of contact with the lamé, but the machine would only sound the buzzer, initiate lockouts, etc., when the tip is depressed on the opponent’s lamé.

[mrbiggs]

Originally Posted by oso97

Becuase you'd need to test the spring with a wieght. You'd have to have the wieght hooked into the machine somehow.

Same with epee, only the addition of somehow testing the shim, if the idea for full body lamés goes though.

Or onto the opponent's lamé. It could be done with some solder an an alligator clip, I'd think. It would be a little inconvenient, but not much.

[DHCJr]

A little inconvenient. Many fencers in pool competitions at the end of each bout will test the weight with the weight that is the official weight. I can see it now, calling over your opponent and having them stand there so you can test your weapon.

At the beginning of the bout one fencer gets hooked up first, so the referee tests their weapon. Now he has to wait for both fencers to be hooked up and both there before he can test weapons.

[DHCJr]

Originally Posted by Frank Pratt

If I am not mistaken, sabre does not use the white lights for anything nowadays. I don't fence sabre, though, so I could be wrong.

I missed this. Actually the white light is used in Sabre and still would be needed in Foil, in addition to the testing. Why, because it is the fastest way to tell if there is a problem. Let us imagine, there is about a minute of time left and a break in one of the lines occurs, but they keep fencing and at the last moment the person behind goes for it and nothing happens. They test and they can get a touch. They look at the Foil and the wire is hanging out or there is a break in the bodycord for both Foil and Sabre. A white light coming on and staying on would tell the referee that something is wrong and should stop the bout. If there is a break in Sabre, the white light comes on, it is not as instantaneous as Foil, but it does not affect the action, except for the fact, if the break is in the C line, no touch will occur.

[achilleus]

Originally Posted by esskreemr

Transparent Masks:
The mask with transparent visor can be used at foil, epee and sabre. But if the mask becomes totally transparent, it will be appropriate at foil but no longer at epee, because of its slippery surface.

If sole the visor is transparent, there is no problem neither at foil nor at epee.
The SEMI decides to notify in writing all the manufacturers that all the masks must be sold together with a certificate of cloth of 1600 newton.

I am so not looking forward to next season.

[Frank Pratt]

Originally Posted by DHCJr

I missed this. Actually the white light is used in Sabre and still would be needed in Foil, in addition to the testing. Why, because it is the fastest way to tell if there is a problem. Let us imagine, there is about a minute of time left and a break in one of the lines occurs, but they keep fencing and at the last moment the person behind goes for it and nothing happens. They test and they can get a touch. They look at the Foil and the wire is hanging out or there is a break in the bodycord for both Foil and Sabre. A white light coming on and staying on would tell the referee that something is wrong and should stop the bout. If there is a break in Sabre, the white light comes on, it is not as instantaneous as Foil, but it does not affect the action, except for the fact, if the break is in the C line, no touch will occur.

Point taken. Faults in the wiring and/or weapons would be vurturally impossible to detect until the referee noticed that on-target touches were not registering. These touches that should have registered can't be awarded, putting the fencer at a disadvantage.

[OROD]

Originally Posted by Frank Pratt

It would, however, make it easier to score a quick remise or counterattack in some circumstances (eg. if your opponent's point is not yet near the target area.)

You mean, hit them before they hit you... this is called epeé.

It is illegal to use the non-weapon arm for anything under the current rules (as far an manipulating, deflecting, or blocking your opponent’s blade or attack, at least.)

You are correct, I meant to say "weapon arm", my mistake. What will happen with no off-target lights is that people, myself included, will begin to train to block an attack with the "weapon arm" and then counter. This will be even lamer than using chest protectors to stop hits, but people will do it.

I would strongly argue against any rule change being implemented before sufficient testing (eg. the recent rules that came about after very little testing!)

Completely agree.

You do have a good point about the FIE doing a lot of tinkering with foil lately. Perhaps a major change like this should no be considered until the dust settles a bit from the timing changes.

Another thing I was just thinking of is that if they are trying to get rid of the off-target light to make things easier on spectators, what makes them think that it wont have the opposite effect? I mean, how are people watching going to understand that in order to score a fencer must have right of way, but sometimes he has right of way and attacks and hits, but doesnt score. How arbitrary will it seem? The rules (and lights) the way they are enforce the consistancy of the right-of-way rules, and I believe, make it easier for non-fencers to understand the concept of right-of-way in foil.

All the sport needs is to be shown like every other televised sport... with proper commentators that explain the rules/actions and slow motion playbacks that allow people to see what happened. That alone will help emensely, changing the rules every year will not.