Ask and ye shall receive!

[AllisonT]

I remember a year ago in this forum, I asked why a manufacturer was unable to make those little electric beep boxes with differently toned beeps so people could tell who got a touch (in cases where there was a question).

Well, I just saw Zivkovic has made one, with 3 different tones.

See, people are reading and responding to fencers' needs (um, equipment needs).

Thanks.

[Duellist USA]

You've got to give to Ben....he is always on top of the game...I remember him being the first with the Lexan over a decade ago...



Rick Shellhouse

[Craig]

Originally Posted by AllisonT

Well, I just saw Zivkovic has made one, with 3 different tones.

Well, Zivkovic is reselling one that is made by Favero.

http://www.favero.com/en/com/ftt1.htm

[AllisonT]

I'm not familiar with the Favero equipment, so it was news to me. I just remember most people saying that a 2-tone box couldn't be done because of the frequencies needed to actuate the tones.

Glad it's out there, at any rate.

[DHCJr]

Duelist and that is sometimes why I curse him.

The two-tone is nothing new. Dan's Universal testers for over 20 years have had different tones for Good and Bad tests and they use the same type of speakers. They can be adjusted.

[Duellist USA]

Its impossible for you to let that go isnt it...I mean have a coke and a twinkie and a smile and give up on it already...


Rick Shellhouse

[gatorjosh]

They should just play a cow mooing for one box and a cat purring for the other. That way you dont have to destinguish between "tones"

[DHCJr]

Rick, your right. I should stop caring about fencers and their safety. I should stop considering the only serious injury that can be attributed to an FIE mask is a visor one.

The first thing Dan taught me over 30 years ago is an Armorers first, last and allways job is Safety.

[hpfencing]

Originally Posted by DHCJr

The first thing Dan taught me over 30 years ago is an Armorers first, last and allways job is Safety.

As a Coach I agree 100% safety is the Key reason we need armors at events.

[Duellist USA]

Don,

OK....to start with...I never said to ignore safety I resent your implication that that was what I said or implied. My statement meant that your constant barage on the matter of Lexan masks was ongoing, that you were NOT going to convince me without concrete evidence and so constantly bringing it up in any response to one of my posts was a waste of time. I will accept your apology assuming you can stomach admitting you were wrong.

So once again... PROVE with FIRSTHAND or HAVE SOMEONE WHO HAS AND CAN PROVE that LEXAN is unsafe contact me. You have STILL not done so from our previous little tete a tete about this. Explain to me why numerious web searches show NOTHING backing up your "claims" and in fact show that the amount (thickness) of Lexan used in the masks FAR exceeds any normal level for safety. That NO Fencing INJURIES due to Lexan are to be found on the web despite numerious attempts.

Till then on THIS subject in my eyes....youre Chicken Little screaming the sky is falling.

So you may continue your tirade about Lexan masks till the cows come home...you have not backed up any of your claims with first person knowledge i.e. person injuried and tournament in which the injury took place.
Not you heard it from so and so unless THEY are going to come on and back you up.

I was happy to agree to disagree until your implication that I could care less about safety.

Respectfully,

Rick Shellhouse

[whtouche]

Didn't a sabre recently penetrate a lexan mask at the las vegas world cup?

Do you need more than one example of someone almost getting stabbed in the face?

[Duellist USA]

No, I dont need more than one example.


BUT

I do need an actual example...not rumor..not hearsy...not he said/she said...


An actual NAME of a fencer via email is fine. The actual tournament once again via email is fine. Or instant messanger....carrier pigeon....telegram...

BUT I refuse to get on the LEXAN is BAD bandwagon without proof. I have FIRSTHAND knowledge of someone who has been using the Lexan mask up to an international level for almost a decade. Not a single issue. So for me to discount that type of endorsement I require actual proof.Actual proof is all I have been asking for...not impinging anyones qualifications...or concerns over safety...just proof. I have YET to be given such.


The same if you go to a bank and borrow money..they want PROOF you can pay them back...not your friends word that you can...not your next door neighbor stating they heard you could. ACTUAL proof...


Is that to much to ask?


Rick Shellhouse

[DHCJr]

I got the information from Dan DeChaine. He does not want to give specifics, except it was a Cuban fencer at a Italian World Cup. The reason is he is trying to help the Cuban Armorer get evidence. From what I understand the mask was taken and they can't get it back. Pictures were taken, same problem. I don't think the FIE wants to publish this.

I will belive more of what Dan DeChaine says over what the FIE Won't say.

As in my previous argument, let us not consider the lexan. I agree with the current design there as never been a breakage through the lexan. What happened in Las Vegas was a shift of the lexan. From what the Armorers said it was not a serious penatration. I agree neither of these has caused a serious injury. The hundreds of welds is the problem. For the Armorer in the time alloted, especially at a World Cup is the problem and where the mask failed.

I agree that Stan has done some amazing things, like the handles. I have also seen problems like the 'American Made' reels at the Denver Junior Worlds a number of years back.

If someone continues to praise these masks, I will continue to fight them.

P.S. You might check some of my previous posts. When someone proves me wrong, I not only apologize, but I praise them. There is no apologize here.

[Duellist USA]

Ok...

Im gonna assume you mean Ben and not Stan...as Stan is Blade.


As for the other...I will call Ted L. monday and ask him I would assume somehting of this serious of a nature would have been discussed among the upper levels of Armours..Ive got to drop off some machines to him anyhow.

"I agree with the current design there as never been a breakage through the lexan."

Ok...Then why dont you state that you think the DESIGN of the mask is unsafe...not harping that the Lexan is unsafe...

"What happened in Las Vegas was a shift of the lexan"

Ok...was this a new mask? An old mask? perhaps the Lexan had been changed by a less than knowledgeable Armour who wasnt use to changing the lexan?

"For the Armorer in the time alloted, especially at a World Cup is the problem and where the mask failed"

Huh? Splain this please.

"If someone continues to praise these masks, I will continue to fight them."

And I will continue to point out that you have still given no proof other than a non specific statement that you received this information from Dan Duchaine.

"There is no apologize here."

Funny thing...I didn't think there would be.

[broncofencer]

I always thought it would be cool if the boxes could be made to accept .wav files or something similar so you could customize your own sound to whatever fits you.

[DHCJr]

First, thank you that was a typo. I did mean Ben. I apologize both to you and Ben. By the way Dan's name is DeChaine. You might contact him at the Olympic Training site during Armorer's College. It is very possible that Ted may not have heard. I only heard because I see Dan almost every week if he is in town.

It would have had to be a fairly new mask and probably one that has not had the lexan changed as all masks had to be 2004 or later.

What I meant about the time allocation is the Armorers are given 1 or 2 hours to check everything. When I was approached to do the Las Vegas World Cup, it was going to be just me and ~150 fencers. It ended up they had 2 Armorers and ~200 fencers. In 2 hours there are 240 man/minutes for 2 Armorers. That includes checking lame's, bodycords and masks in just over a minute for each fencer. Because of the design of the lexan mask (Thank you, that is a good suggestion), there is more to check. There is the lexan itself, which will be quick, each of the nuts to make sure they are tight, check there are no cracks on any of the welds both on the outside and inside. Then check the rest of the mask normally. Let us say 1/3 of the fencers bring an extra lame' and most bring 3 or 4 body cords. How much time will be left to check the mask. With a normal mask, I don't think I would have a problem keeping up. I am not so sure about keeping up, if there are Lexan masks.

The idea about emphasizing the design of the mask is good. I'll remember that for next time.

[Duellist USA]

No worries about the typo...as you see I do the same...

I was unfamilar with the ruling that all mask had to be 2004 or later. I knew the lexan visor had to be stamped within the last two years as all lexans must be replaced every two years reguardless of the masks age.

Now in the FIE letter there is two examples of masks failing. One in '04 and one in '05...one sabre one epee...."Already there have been at least 2 reports of transparent mask failures (Pascu witnessed one personally in Womens Sabre in Budapest in Jan 2004; Defoligny-Rayaume reported the same problem for Flessel-Colovic (Womens Epée) in 2005)"

....however in the same letter the Medical board states "However, the major safety concern is what happens when the visor is changed, especially if changed by the fencer. There is no way to guarantee the safety of the mask or assess its compliance with CEN safety standards once a visor is replaced." I agree with them 100%. The replacement of the lexan should never be attempted by anyone less than a fully trained individual.


I understand the lack of available time however I would think the organizers should have taken everything into account when booking armorers for the event. That sounds like a massive lack of planning on thier end. Can you imagine what will happen when you have to check all the new stuff coming down the line? Wireless tshirts...foil bibs (shudder) and whatever other nonsense they come out with?

[DHCJr]

The date of 2004 is because of a new ruling that both the Medical Commission and SEMI had to approve the masks. There were 14 approved before this ruling. The letter that went out listed the approved masks and the approval date, which were all 2004. I only saw a hard copy, so can not upload it.

Thank you on the excerpt on the letter on the Medical Commission. I have been behind on reading up on the FIE website.

The USFA has always been extremely frugal when it comes to Armorers. They see most of the time, we are not very busy, so they think there are too many. Here in California, the organizers are very happy when we are not busy. That means we went over everything before hand and the tournament is running smoothly. At LBI, last year we had ~300 fencers over 2 days and 5 very highly qualified Armorers.

[yeoldearmourer]

Since lexan is use in fighter capony cover it is fairly tough matieral and that lexan is also use in bullet prof glass it must be tough.

[DHCJr]

After seeing your quote from the Medical Commission, I went and looked at the SEMI. On page 5, it list the certification of the 4 masks as being 2005.

Other things caught my eye. The proposal to bevel the edges of Sabres, which was brought about because of what happened at a NAC this last season. Also for SEMI representatives to work World Championships they will have to be able to use 2 of the 3 official languages. There are some who know none. Of course that is not the case with Dan as he knows all three and can communicate with all the SEMI reps who don't know any of the 3. Then they list the proposed members for the Junior Worlds in Korea and I believe 2 of the 3 do not have the necessary language skills. I believe Suk speaks Japanese, so that will most likely be the language they speak to each other.

At the Junior Worlds in Korea, they are proposing not to check weight and shim in control. This will be interesting, because for some, that is how they check before they go on the strip. I can see a few Yellow and Red cards coming.