Ask and ye shall receive!

[Purple Fencer]

Originally Posted by yeoldearmourer

Since lexan is use in fighter capony cover it is fairly tough matieral and that lexan is also use in bullet prof glass it must be tough.

Time to start shooting frozen fowl at a mask, then!

[downunder]

Originally Posted by DHCJr

At the Junior Worlds in Korea, they are proposing not to check weight and shim in control. This will be interesting, because for some, that is how they check before they go on the strip. I can see a few Yellow and Red cards coming.

As if.

At worlds this year it took hours for them to check our gear, and obviously we fenced with the weapons and warmed up with them. All the fencers in my poule checked with their own equipment - and we had one yellow card maybe, and that was for a broken wire.

[Moses]

Originally Posted by DHCJr

I will belive more of what Dan DeChaine says over what the FIE Won't say.

Agreed, wholeheartedly.

-Da Mose

[yeoldearmourer]

The edge of the sabre had nothing to do with the injury at the NAc since it was a point attack the glove seam gave away and the point went stight in Donald. I should knew since is was my daughter weapon and I contribution it more to the stiffness off the blade then to the edge and yes Donald it was within legal bend test rules as I ck it when it got back home. The injury would of incurred period. Like I said the edge had nothing to do with it.

[DHCJr]

I stated poorly what I wanted to say. Maybe it would have been better to say that incident was the straw that broke the camels back. There was talk before about beveling the edges because of other incidences that were caused by sharp edges and stiff blades. What happened galvanized the thoughts of enough to make a change.

[timstang]

Well the failure of the mask in Las Vegas caused a bit of a stir until it was determined what caused it. I know that I have a tonne of photos of this silly mask and a flurry of emails from all sorts giving me gears regarding their testing for the Vancouver WC.

I agree with Donald that in regards to a standard traditional mask the Lexan are a pain in the **** to check. Serious flaws are possible to miss in any reasonable check and given the mask is required (or soon to be) the amount of time required and the level of training of the checker has increased.

I suspect that we're going to see a good number of lexan mismatch issues in the coming future since many of the older masks had significant differences from model to model.

Tim

[DHCJr]

Originally Posted by downunder

As if.

At worlds this year it took hours for them to check our gear, and obviously we fenced with the weapons and warmed up with them. All the fencers in my poule checked with their own equipment - and we had one yellow card maybe, and that was for a broken wire.

I have been out of touch and could not get to this sooner. The first thing I want to say is whomever made the request to not check weight and travel in Control does not understand what a World Championship Control. It is like asking to remain seated instead of standing to give a speech. The amount of time saved is insignificant.

Control as a World Cup has nothing in common with the World Championship. Does eliminating weight and travel eliminate the need to have your weapons checked? NO!

Let me go over what is involved and what the procedures are.

1) Equipment is turned in the morning before the competition.
2) It is submitted by team, not individual.
3) For most teams that know what is going on, the fencers do NOT turn in the equipment, nor stand in any line, if there is one.
This is because if there is something found to warrant a Black card, the person who receives it, is the one who turned in the equipment, not the person who owns the equipment. Having a coach, cadre or Armorer Black carded is better than a fencer.
4) You do not wait around for the equipment to be checked. You come back that afternoon or the next day, depending on the schedule.
5) During control the weapon is checked for overall length, size of guard, length and angulation of handle, flexibility, curvature of the blade, that it is a legal blade, checked for microscopic cracks, electrical resistance.
The weapon has to be plugged in for the last, so how much more time will it take.

[downunder]

Originally Posted by DHCJr

Let me go over what is involved and what the procedures are.

1) Equipment is turned in the morning before the competition.
2) It is submitted by team, not individual.
3) For most teams that know what is going on, the fencers do NOT turn in the equipment, nor stand in any line, if there is one.
This is because if there is something found to warrant a Black card, the person who receives it, is the one who turned in the equipment, not the person who owns the equipment. Having a coach, cadre or Armorer Black carded is better than a fencer.
4) You do not wait around for the equipment to be checked. You come back that afternoon or the next day, depending on the schedule.
5) During control the weapon is checked for overall length, size of guard, length and angulation of handle, flexibility, curvature of the blade, that it is a legal blade, checked for microscopic cracks, electrical resistance.
The weapon has to be plugged in for the last, so how much more time will it take.

I'm just saying that checking/failing weapons for weights and gauges is silly considering the obvious modification that will go on the night before or morning of the competition.

*edit*

At Linz this year it was done individually and we had to sign for it and show our accreditation...

[downunder]

Originally Posted by DHCJr

The amount of time saved is insignificant.

say 5 seconds per passed weapon? 10 per failed one so he can scribble illegibly on a bit of paper for us.

Times by a few thousand weapons? I think it would make a significant difference.

[DHCJr]

Originally Posted by downunder

say 5 seconds per passed weapon? 10 per failed one so he can scribble illegibly on a bit of paper for us.

Times by a few thousand weapons? I think it would make a significant difference.

Much less than 5 seconds, because even if they were not to test for weight and shim, they still need to plug it in and push down on the tip anyway. Why would it fail. You are saying you are going to check it before you go up on the strip. Why didn't you when going up to Control. The weapons that failed are the ones that should have been checked because these are the fencers who don't check their equipment.

The amount of time is not significant when you consider how long every other test on the weapon would take. The test for weight and shim wouldn't even be 5% of the test for just weapons.

Also, why should it matter to the fencer. In fact it will probably save the fencer some time. Will they use every weapon to practice? I doubt it, so why should they test themselves their other weapons? If Control does not check for weight and shim, then the fencer will have to check all their weapons, not just the ones they used.

It will also not save anybody standing in line. As I said, you do not stick around to wait for them to test the equipment.

As far as Linz. I don't worry about Armorers who don't follow the rules and don't know the procedures. I can tell you without being there, in Korea at the Junior/Cadet Worlds, it will be by teams. Look at who the SEMI representatives are. One is Dan DeChaine, who is in charge of writing the procedures for Control.

I don't know if it has ever happened to the US to have failed a weapon for weight or shim, but if it ever does, I would be worried about the weights and shims put on the strips. The standard is to set the weight over 510 for Foil and 760 for Epee and the travel between 0.45 and 0.48. If it fails, that tells me that the equipment used is not in spec and I should adjust accordingly.

If I am lucky enough to go as the US Armorer, I hope they test weight and shim. It will be better for my fencers.

[yeoldearmourer]

DHCJR

Remenber when we use to do full weapon control on weapons on Nats How the amount of weapons failed back then. They ***** about mask bodycords and lames. Cna you image bell guard length of blade and weapon flex test. You would need a team of 30 armourers now for what we used to do

[DHCJr]

There were 8 of us for the World University in Buffalo and we had every team completed before Noon, except for the French, but they never turned their equipment in during the window. They waited to 2 or 3 before they turned their stuff in. The only thing we did not test for was the microfractures. We also had 3 Gabarits, instead of the normal 2 which helped.

I think the minimum experience of that group was 3 or 4 Worlds.

[KD5MDK]

What is a Gabarit? I'm assuming a test box of some sort, but then it could just be a large family of International Armorers who don't always show up together...

[great bowyer]

i am GUESSING that a gabarit is a test device used to measure the dimensions of the weapons such as the guard size and blade length and flexability.

[downunder]

Originally Posted by DHCJr

As far as Linz. I don't worry about Armorers who don't follow the rules and don't know the procedures. I can tell you without being there, in Korea at the Junior/Cadet Worlds, it will be by teams. Look at who the SEMI representatives are. One is Dan DeChaine, who is in charge of writing the procedures for Control.

Dan was there in Linz, very nice guy, i got to speak with him personally. He offered the services of the US armorers to us, which i took him up on to file down a slot in the guard. You US people are good fun, although i did run into a funny/crazy/cool guy that collected badges.

[Purple Fencer]

Originally Posted by great bowyer

i am GUESSING that a gabarit is a test device used to measure the dimensions of the weapons such as the guard size and blade length and flexability.

Correct!!

Dowunder...did you happen to notice what beer Dan was drinking?? (I think I'm the only US armorer who doesn't drink!)

[Sword Mistress]

you aren't the only one.

although i am not included in that minority.

i have met a few that go back to their hotels rather than attend the nightly Armorer's Meetings at the local pub.

hey, somebody's got to make up for all those beers not being consumed.

i have a picture of a Gabarit somewhere.... i would post it if i had it scanned.

working on it.

[Sword Mistress]

http://photos.yafro.com/pics3/i/2005...5f480_full.jpg

here ya go. a current picture of a gabarit that Uhlmann sells.

[Mr Epee]

Originally Posted by Purple Fencer

(I think I'm the only US armorer who doesn't drink!)

And are therefore not to be trusted.

[fencinman89]

Dan drinks Guiness.
-Tre'