MF, ME, MS and WS teams in Beijing Olympics?!

[Mr Epee]

And lets not forget that a broad field selected from many nations is more in line with the Olympic spirit than a minority sport that has been dominated by France, Italy, Hungary, Russia, and Germany for the past 109 years.

Remember that African Swimmer that received all the media coverage because he was representing his poor country in the Olympics despite the fact that he had never even swam/trained in a 50m pool before the competition? At one point he even stopped in the middle of the pool to rest for a second. Great inspirational story that received lots of coverage, and made a lasting impression that illustrates a major Olympic ideal.

Then you have fencing...

We don't allow these stories. In fencing, NGB's whose athletes screwed the pooch during the qualification process sit around drooling and jockeying to snap up the slot vacated when the African qualifier drops out (read: is payed off)...

[Capt. Slo-mo]

For the record, I actually COACH women's sabre fencers (and currently equally one half my students currently are women, so :P ). (snip) So, thank you, I've established my bonifides as a genuine "non-women hater."

An arguable point. My first coach had non-adults in every class, but he hated kids, and hated to teach them. Plus, there's what you do, and then what you say (and the way you say it.)

to say that this board is now full of mysogenists who resent women? Or that don't support women's fencing?

The board is not full of misogynists. There are a handful who have some fairly dismissive views towards women. And there are a few who are not particularly supportive of women's saber.

When someone invokes "because you disagree with me, you're a sexist" is to lower the standards of the debate. My post was intended to illustrate this in the most dramatic way I could.

I'm not sure anyone is making it as a standard argument: "just because you fail to recognize the power of the French Grip, you must be sexist." The sexist argument comes up when people make comments like "women's saber doesn't belong in the Olympics" or "a women's "A" ranking isn't as meaningful as a man's "A" ranking". When it's done in response to that kind of thinking, it's not the same as the time-honored invoking of Godwin's Law to end a debate.

It is NOT sexist to say that WS should no have been added at the perminant expense of WTF. And I say this as a sabre fencer and coach. With female students.

No, but it IS sexist for someone to say that womens saber shouldn't have been added at all, that it's not good enough for Olympic competition, or that's men's events are inherently more meaningful than women's.

[Capt. Slo-mo]

While fencing parents sacrifice much, and get quite a bit of exposure to high levels of the sport, this doesn't make them qualified to judge certain aspects of the sport.

Such as?

merely watching good fencing doesn't confer qualifications to fencing.

And yet, the mere act of having picked up a foil at a rec center class confers some inherently superior qualifications over a long time fencing parent?

While I've fenced saber in the past, I haven't done so in a while. The need to support a family and a World Cup fencer (along with a bad knee, bad back and chronic tennis elbow) trumped my willingness to train regularly some time ago.

But I live and breathe fencing on a daily basis, watch practices with one of the top level saber coaches in the world, go to NAC and World Cup meets, videotape countless matches, and then examine the video by doing slow-motion analysis of hundreds--if not thousands--of points.

I wouldn't exercise much profundity about the intricacies of foil or epee at the World Cup level, but for saber, I have some passing familiarity with the weapon.

Even though I'm just a fencing parent.

[achilleus]

Cap'n, I don't even think you know what you're arguing anymore, but I'm bored so here goes...

Such as?

Well, did you read the rest of my post? I followed the part you quoted with a perfect analogy including some aspects:

I mean, I watch the NBA a lot. I see lots of high level basketball, but I'm not really qualified to perform, coach, or ascertain tactics, talent or skill at that level.

Hm, looks that answered your question...

And yet, the mere act of having picked up a foil at a rec center class confers some inherently superior qualifications over a long time fencing parent?

You roll your eyes? Why? I agree with you. Having picked up a foil at a rec class confers no more qualification than being a fencing parent.

While I've fenced saber in the past, I haven't done so in a while. The need to support a family and a World Cup fencer (along with a bad knee, bad back and chronic tennis elbow) trumped my willingness to train regularly some time ago.

But I live and breathe fencing on a daily basis, watch practices with one of the top level saber coaches in the world, go to NAC and World Cup meets, videotape countless matches, and then examine the video by doing slow-motion analysis of hundreds--if not thousands--of points.

I wouldn't exercise much profundity about the intricacies of foil or epee at the World Cup level, but for saber, I have some passing familiarity with the weapon.

Even though I'm just a fencing parent.

Good for you. Your story, however is yours and is not immediately applicable to every person who is the parent of a fencer. What about that don't you get?

You seem to think that I'm doubting Mo's qualifications, which I'm not. I'm just want it to be clear that raising a child who fences is not a qualification to judge top level fencing.

In terms of judging top level fencing, I respect your own fencing experience much more. I mean, my parents have a child who has done just fine on the world cup circuit, yet I doubt they could tell you much about the sport other than I do it, my national and FIE ranking, and that I fence ee-pea.

Oh, and on a completely unrelated note, it's called Army of Darkness. No 3 involved. Sure the working title was Mid-Evil Dead 3, but it was released as merely Army of Darkness...

[achilleus]

I'm not sure anyone is making it as a standard argument: "just because you fail to recognize the power of the French Grip, you must be sexist." The sexist argument comes up when people make comments like "women's saber doesn't belong in the Olympics" or "a women's "A" ranking isn't as meaningful as a man's "A" ranking". When it's done in response to that kind of thinking, it's not the same as the time-honored invoking of Godwin's Law to end a debate.
...
No, but it IS sexist for someone to say that womens saber shouldn't have been added at all, that it's not good enough for Olympic competition, or that's men's events are inherently more meaningful than women's.

*Sigh*

You 'Mo's' don't pay attention to what people say do you? You just see one or two lines, and jump to the sexist claim. You say it's not standard, but then you immediately apply it to several different blanket statements.

Here's a simple analogy for you:

A man shoots another man in the back.

You immediately scream murder.
You fail to notice that the dead man has just shot a small child and was turning to shoot the man behind him, who was acting in self defense.

Just because someone says one of those lines doesn't make them sexist. Read their reasons behind it. I've stated my reasons for why WS should not have been added. I may be wrong, but my opinion has nothing to do with gender. My last post for quite a while...

Maybe, just maybe, when Pozdniakov stated (years ago) that WS was not as developed as MS he was speaking as an authority on the sport of sabre? Is it not concievable that a sport that just started gaining popularity in the late 90's might not be as developed as one that has been around since the first Olympics? Sure, Poz could be some old world sketchy guy who thinks woman only belong in the kitchen, I don't know. I'm just saying it's very possible that he was looking at the sport from a different perspective than yours.
See you all on the strip...
Yes, sexism unfortunately exists, but that doesn't mean that every statement someone makes is a form of sexism. And yes, you and Mo often accuse someone of being sexist or resentful towards women because they disagree with how WS was inserted to the Olympic Games.

[sabreman]

>>when Pozdniakov stated (years ago) that WS was not as developed as MS

It was actually last year 2004.

From ask the question section:

"According to women sabre, … I’ve no ideas about it. To my mind, it doesn’t deserve the Olympic championship yet, because most of such sabrers now are re-taught from foil. "

http://eng.pozdnyakov.com/index.php

[Capt. Slo-mo]

Cap'n, I don't even think you know what you're arguing anymore, but I'm bored so here goes......

After being home only 3 days in the last month, I don't even know what part of the country I'm in!

Well, did you read the rest of my post? I followed the part you quoted with a perfect analogy including some aspects:...

A reference to the NBA is meaningless to me in terms of what specific aspects of fencing you think can't be absorbed by exposure to the sport. Tactics, talent, skill? All available for analysis and a constantly growing knowledge base by people who pay attention...whether they fence or not. What else?

You roll your eyes? Why? I agree with you. Having picked up a foil at a rec class confers no more qualification than being a fencing parent....

And yet, your statement:

merely watching good fencing doesn't confer qualifications to fencing....

was in response to Boo's note to Mo that her experience gave Mo some insight to the sport. In context, your reply clearly indicated to me that you valued fencing experience more than fencing exposure when it came to evaluating people's opinions on the sport.

Good for you. Your story, however is yours and is not immediately applicable to every person who is the parent of a fencer. What about that don't you get? ...

Having picked up a weapon is not immediately an imprimatur of infallible opinions, either. What part of that don't you get?

I know some very good fencers that I'd never want to have referee a bout. Or try to explain actions on TV.

You seem to think that I'm doubting Mo's qualifications, which I'm not. I'm just want it to be clear that raising a child who fences is not a qualification to judge top level fencing....

Between you and sabreman:

Not sure they give out rankings for non fencing WS parents. LOL!....

it sort of seemed like casting doubts was exactly what was happening. If not, then we can all breathe easier. If someone who spends an inordinate amount of time on fencing like Mo seems to have: (Division chair; Division, Sectional and National Bout committee; numerous trips to NAC and international competitions) isn't qualified to chime in every now and then, who IS the Uber-authority? A Y14 point weapon fencer like DFP?

Truth be told, womens saber just hasnt been around as long, and hasnt had the time to age like the other weapons. Mind you, the average audience doesnt give a rip, but I think its the wrong move to olympicize an event that isnt quite ripe.....

In terms of judging top level fencing, I respect your own fencing experience much more. I mean, my parents have a child who has done just fine on the world cup circuit, yet I doubt they could tell you much about the sport other than I do it, my national and FIE ranking, and that I fence ee-pea....

And that's where you'd be wrong. I've learned far more in the last couple of years going to national and international competitions and doing video analysis than I ever did while fencing. It's mostly a function of exposure to and discussion of high level competitions. As for your parents, that's actually kind of sad. Don't extrapolate their level of interest and knowledge to other sets of fencing parents.

Oh, and on a completely unrelated note, it's called Army of Darkness. No 3 involved. Sure the working title was Mid-Evil Dead 3, but it was released as merely Army of Darkness...

Technically, could be true, yet the VHS box from the video rental store had it labeled as: Army of Darkness with a big red 3 scrawled underneath. From the blurb: A movie that only true horror buffs could love, Army of Darkness is officially part 3 in the wild and wacky Evil Dead trilogy
If it offends your cinematic sensibilities, I'm happy to alter my sig line. No extra charge.

[Capt. Slo-mo]

You 'Mo's' don't pay attention to what people say do you? You just see one or two lines, and jump to the sexist claim.
I've stated my reasons for why WS should not have been added. I may be wrong, but my opinion has nothing to do with gender.

OK, pay attention to this, since it seems to have slipped by, unless I was being murky. I think it was absolutely wrong for the IOC to have forced events to be dropped from fencing when WS was added, and wrong for the FIE to have knuckled under. I don't consider that a sexist response. But, when people say WS doesn't belong there because it's an inferior sport to the men's events, or follow along with the FIE contention that the men's events are somehow better for the sport, then I suspect sexism. See the difference?

And yes, you and Mo often accuse someone of being sexist or resentful towards women because they disagree with how WS was inserted to the Olympic Games.

Don't necessarily lump us together. While we seem to agree on some things, I suspect there is a diversity of opinion on others.

[achilleus]

After being home only 3 days in the last month, I don't even know what part of the country I'm in!

Welcome home!

A reference to the NBA is meaningless to me in terms of what specific aspects of fencing you think can't be absorbed by exposure to the sport. Tactics, talent, skill? All available for analysis and a constantly growing knowledge base by people who pay attention...whether they fence or not. What else?

As someone who plays basketball on a regular basis since my youth, and have watched NBA and NCAA, trust me I'm not an expert on any of those things. Exposure to basketball doesn't make one a credible expert, neither does exposure to high level fencing.

And yet, your statement: was in response to Boo's note to Mo that her experience gave Mo some insight to the sport. In context, your reply clearly indicated to me that you valued fencing experience more than fencing exposure when it came to evaluating people's opinions on the sport.

Yes and no. My response was to Boo, and mere exposure to fencing is not a qualification as a master or ability to judge fencing. This goes for anybody. I don't know Mo. I don't know anything about her other than what she posts. I don't know if she knows anything about the game itself, and I certainly don't think that raising a fencer qualifies one to talk about the game itself.

Having picked up a weapon is not immediately an imprimatur of infallible opinions, either. What part of that don't you get?

Dude, I agree with you.

I know some very good fencers that I'd never want to have referee a bout. Or try to explain actions on TV.

Agree there as well. Some are able to do it, but not explain it.

Between you and sabreman: it sort of seemed like casting doubts was exactly what was happening. If not, then we can all breathe easier.

Breathe easier, at least don't breathe on me. I was not part of that exchange. If you check who was posting, you'll notice my name was attached to those...

If someone who spends an inordinate amount of time on fencing like Mo seems to have: (Division chair; Division, Sectional and National Bout committee; numerous trips to NAC and international competitions) isn't qualified to chime in every now and then, who IS the Uber-authority? A Y14 point weapon fencer like DFP?

Again with the eye rolling...

So, Mo, who has clearly mentioned her dedication and involvement has been involved in the organizational business of fencing. Obvioiusly, she's very qualified to talk about such things.

As for DFP, I never said he was qualified, in fact, I never even disagreed with Peach's original assertion that perhaps foil and epeeist's aren't suited to judging the complexity of Sabre.

And that's where you'd be wrong. I've learned far more in the last couple of years going to national and international competitions and doing video analysis than I ever did while fencing. It's mostly a function of exposure to and discussion of high level competitions.

And that's part of your fencing experience.

As for your parents, that's actually kind of sad. Don't extrapolate their level of interest and knowledge to other sets of fencing parents.

Not sad at all. Fencing is but one part of my life, and my parents let me live my life. They don't need to go everywhere I do, nor do they need to be involved in everything I do. I am my own person after all...

As extrapolating to other parents. I don't. I used to coach kids, I also occasionally ref events. I've seen many different types of fencing parents, and if I am to believe what you say here, then you are an exception.

Technically, could be true, yet the VHS box from the video rental store had it labeled as: Army of Darkness with a big red 3 scrawled underneath. From the blurb: A movie that only true horror buffs could love, Army of Darkness is officially part 3 in the wild and wacky Evil Dead trilogy
If it offends your cinematic sensibilities, I'm happy to alter my sig line. No extra charge.

Interesting... checked IMDB that had about 7 different names it was known under, and that wasn't one...

Wonder when they came up with that one...

[achilleus]

OK, pay attention to this, since it seems to have slipped by, unless I was being murky. I think it was absolutely wrong for the IOC to have forced events to be dropped from fencing when WS was added, and wrong for the FIE to have knuckled under. I don't consider that a sexist response. But, when people say WS doesn't belong there because it's an inferior sport to the men's events, or follow along with the FIE contention that the men's events are somehow better for the sport, then I suspect sexism. See the difference?

No, I don't see much of a difference. Again, take a look at what Poz said. It may be sexism, but it may not. If judging the event solely based on his skill in the sport, then it's possible to say WS is inferior to the men's event. Not because they competitors are women, but because the sport is relatively new to them. The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist.
It's also possible that, looking at it from a media perspective, the men's events are better for the sport. I don't know, I don't keep a talley of all the world cups, and the spectators/competitors they draw, do you? You think, maybe, just maybe, the FIE are actually thinking what's gonna draw the most media attention? It's possible. I realize given the FIE's history, it's questionable, but it does sound plausible, especially when looking at NYAC Fencing and Reposte's sensible comments...

It's also very arguable that the men's events are more popular due to a long standing bias against women in sports, but that is, at this point, beyond the scope of our discussion...And poof. Just like that, he's gone.

Don't necessarily lump us together. While we seem to agree on some things, I suspect there is a diversity of opinion on others.

I don't. You're much more reasonable in a discussion, although you do have a strange habit of defending her. Why is that I wonder...

[KD5MDK]

But, when people say WS doesn't belong there because it's an inferior sport to the men's events,

What if they said it didn't belong because WS is an inferior sport (in traditions and experience) than WF?

[sabreman]

What Poz says is true in Russia and in other countries too. We are just seeing the first generation of WS fencers that started out in the weapon. The US had a head start in WS and has taken advantage of the situation. The fencing power nations were not expecting WS in the 2004 OG. WS is still in the early stages of development and will take some time to mature to level of WF. In WF you have fencers who are in there late 20 and early 30s that are pros. There job is to fence and they have been doing it since their teens. This just isn't the case yet in WS. It will be interesting to see if the US will be able to keep elite WS fencers going after college age. This has been a big problem in the other weapons where our fencers are facing late 20 and early 30 year old pros. For example Poz is 32 years old and has been fencing as a pro since he was a teen. On the flip side the US has Ivan Lee who has to hold down a full time job as a school teacher and fit in fencing on the side.

>>
Between you and sabreman:
Quote:
Originally Posted by sabreman
Not sure they give out rankings for non fencing WS parents. LOL!....

it sort of seemed like casting doubts was exactly what was happening. If not, then we can all breathe easier. If someone who spends an inordinate amount of time on fencing like Mo seems to have: (Division chair; Division, Sectional and National Bout committee; numerous trips to NAC and international competitions) isn't qualified to chime in every now and then, who IS the Uber-authority?
<<

I admit I lack tact but I have never labeled or called people names. I am open to all opinions but that doesn't mean I have to agree with them.

By the way I am a congress person for my division and have helped organize WC, NACs and so on. I was never a great fencer but I have been on the senior sabre national rankings and fenced in senior WCs. I am also a high ranked vet now with bad lower back and knee. 28 years of sabre fencing takes it's toll.

Peace!

>>What if they said it didn't belong because WS is an inferior sport (in traditions and experience) than WF?
<<

It has been mentioned. IMHO WTF should not have been dropped to make way for WS in 2004. The FIE should have kept things as is if they were not able to add fencing medals for WS.

By the way I think it is great that the US won the medals in WS but I think the whole thing needs to be put into perspective especially when comparing the performance to the other weapons JMHO.