MF, ME, MS and WS teams in Beijing Olympics?!

[oiuyt]

Originally Posted by oso97

Again, 2 men's team events, 2 women's team events, rotating.

Again, I believe the IOC vetoed that suggestion last quad.

They said no making up a format and trying it for the first time at the Olympics (mixed gender teams in a format that hadn't previously been used in the World Championships) and no just rotating through which events are included. Hard to see how there's any other possible solution than either always dropping the same events or creating a mixed-gender team event which we get in place a year or more prior to the Olympics. Or, I suppose, getting the IOC to change its/their mind.

-B :)

[oso97]

Originally Posted by oiuyt

Again, I believe the IOC vetoed that suggestion last quad.

They said no making up a format and trying it for the first time at the Olympics (mixed gender teams in a format that hadn't previously been used in the World Championships) and no just rotating through which events are included. Hard to see how there's any other possible solution than either always dropping the same events or creating a mixed-gender team event which we get in place a year or more prior to the Olympics. Or, I suppose, getting the IOC to change its/their mind.

-B

A mixed weapon (seperate gender team) would certainly be the more reasonable approach. Something similar to the US Collegiate Club stuff would work quite well in fact. And you could even use it to parse out best Foil, Epee and Sabre teams, even if they didn't give medals for them. One could even extend the teams to relay if one wanted, instead of the 1-1, 2-2, 3-3 format. But, yea, doing it at the world championships, thats the key.

Take bloody forever to do it though.

[D'Art]

Do they still have demonstration events at the OGs? If so, would it not be worthwhile trying to get the two events back in as demo events? OK, they wouldn't count for anything in the medals tables, BUT they would still get represented at the OGs.

Just a thought......

[Mo]

Originally Posted by sabreman

>>What's your national ranking? Just curious

Not sure they give out rankings for non fencing WS parents. LOL!

Yes as a fencing parent, division officer for four years, organizer of meets, person who set up all the division qualifers for a couple years, I have a lot of nerve acting like I know a damned thing about fencing.

Oh and the fact that I am not an old **** who thinks I am a fencing god due to past performance sure makes me unknowledgeable about fencing. Did you fence in the Nellya open Saberman? I remember you being hot to fence Sada.

As a parent of a high performance fencers I have been traveling the world going to one fencing meet after another.
I know the way things work. Eyes and ears open, you cannot help but learn.
So excuse me for having opinions.
BTW many of the posters on here are fencing parents. Peach is a fencing parent and a fencer. We do count.

[nyacfencing]

After much reading and internal debate... my thoughts:

This is not about sexism or equality, it is about doing what is best for fencing.

Equality always includes giving rights and never includes taking them away (aside from where they may be wrong or evil). Taking anything away from existing fencers, men or women, to give to another would be wrong. It is no more or less wrong to take an event away form a female foilist as a male saberist regardless of the situation.

You must make different decisions at different levels. The IOC decided that fencing was getting 10 medals. Despite what many think, adding events is not free... It is costly in time, planning, space, logistics, and cash. It would have been no less unfair to remove a women's hammer-throw or men's table tennis event for women's saber.

The FIE also had to make a decision. It wasn't that male fencers were given x medals and women fencers y medals... Fencing as a whole (men, women, epeeists, foilists and saberists) were given 10 to split amongst them. To determine at any level which two events to remove based on sex would be sexism. To say that the men should lose an event to "be fair" is sexism. To say that women should lose an event since we added a women's event is also sexism. In both cases, you are making a determination based on sex, and in all cases this is sexism.

Splitting up the medals based on weapons, or "weaponism" (copyright 2005) is not any better. No fencers practicing any of the three lines should have to have their event taken to give to another. Likewise, WS should not be treated any different than the other weapons simply because it was the last event to receive it's rights.

So the FIE made its decision the only way it could: it used market forces to drive the process. The FIE decided that there was more media attention to be had by holding 3 men's events and 1 women's event. The FIE took it upon themselves to do what, in their eyes, was best for the sport overall. Is the result fair? Of course not, but there were no winners to be had in this decision. The FIE put aside sex and weapons and simple went with the mix that it felt would further the sport as a whole.

[sabreman]

>>Did you fence in the Nellya open Saberman? I remember you being hot to fence Sada.
>>
I wasn't in GA but why would I be afraid to fence? I am still a B rated sabre fencer and see some guys went from Cs to As in that tournament. In this years MAS I was seeded 2nd after the pools against guys half my age. Also when did I ever say I was a fencing God? You are the one always pushing elite this and high performance that. I said I could hold my own against the top women sabre fencers and I still believe that. You and others may not but that is just my opinion. Also you are the one that is always quick to label people (also your friend Slo Mo) that don't follow your agenda. Also when did I say you couldn't have an opinion?

[Boo Boo]

Originally Posted by nyacfencing

So the FIE made its decision the only way it could: it used market forces to drive the process. The FIE decided that there was more media attention to be had by holding 3 men's events and 1 women's event. The FIE took it upon themselves to do what, in their eyes, was best for the sport overall. Is the result fair? Of course not, but there were no winners to be had in this decision. The FIE put aside sex and weapons and simple went with the mix that it felt would further the sport as a whole.

Ok, so just HOW MUCH television coverage did the Olympics get last Summer. In the UK, just about zilch: just about nothing on British Eurosport (one event, maybe individual WE) and then a couple of very small pieces on terresteral TV about Richard Kruse (L8 MF) and Louise Bond-Williams (L16 WS).

In the US, I would guess that most of the (little) coverage you got was about Mariel and Sada (WS Individual)???

The most media coverage was the live feed from the Italian website on the internet. This was pretty indiscriminate regarding sex/weapon - although the Italian WF got quite a lot of coverage...

So we got all this (pathertic) coverage with 6 individual events, 3 men's team events and 1 women's team event. You (or the FIE) think this complete lack of media coverage will decrease just because we have 2 men's team events and 2 women's team events instead???

Hhhhmmm!

Boo
(definitely signing up any sprogs for tennis camp and not fencing school...)

[Boo Boo]

Originally Posted by Mo

Yes as a fencing parent, division officer for four years, organizer of meets, person who set up all the division qualifers for a couple years, I have a lot of nerve acting like I know a damned thing about fencing.

I had guessed/gathered this from your previous posts.

Fencing parents often sacrifice at least as much (if not more) than many competitive fencers. You have probably seen/experienced more high level fencing than 98% of the members here. You are more than qualified to have an opinion

Boo

[sabreman]

>>In the US, I would guess that most of the (little) coverage you got was about Mariel and Sada (WS Individual)???
>>

Men's sabre got as much or more coverage. They even showed the Gold Medal bout without any US fencer involved.

Also the PWF has been the best at getting fencer's pub here in the US.

>>
I had guessed/gathered this from your previous posts.

Fencing parents often sacrifice at least as much (if not more) than many competitive fencers. You have probably seen/experienced more high level fencing than 98% of the members here. You are more than qualified to have an opinion

Boo
>>

Also who said anything about not allowing opinion? Why not accept that others have opinions that might differ without reverting to name calling and labeling?

[achilleus]

Originally Posted by Boo Boo

I had guessed/gathered this from your previous posts.

Fencing parents often sacrifice at least as much (if not more) than many competitive fencers. You have probably seen/experienced more high level fencing than 98% of the members here. You are more than qualified to have an opinion

Boo

While fencing parents sacrifice much, and get quite a bit of exposure to high levels of the sport, this doesn't make them qualified to judge certain aspects of the sport.

I mean, I watch the NBA a lot. I see lots of high level basketball, but I'm not really qualified to perform, coach, or ascertain tactics, talent or skill at that level.

While everyone, obviously, has a right to their opinion, when you start asking for qualifications (and indeed requiring qualifications as someone mentioned above), merely watching good fencing doesn't confer qualifications to fencing.

[Boo Boo]

Originally Posted by achilleus

While fencing parents sacrifice much, and get quite a bit of exposure to high levels of the sport, this doesn't make them qualified to judge certain aspects of the sport.

True. Also some fencing parents are more enlightened and sensible than others - I have met both types. Am assuming Mo is one of the former.

Originally Posted by achilleus

I mean, I watch the NBA a lot. I see lots of high level basketball, but I'm not really qualified to perform, coach, or ascertain tactics, talent or skill at that level.

Very true, although I don't believe that we are talking about any of those aspects of fencing here

Originally Posted by achilleus

While everyone, obviously, has a right to their opinion, when you start asking for qualifications (and indeed requiring qualifications as someone mentioned above), merely watching good fencing doesn't confer qualifications to fencing.

True, but (good) fencing parents don't just watch fencing - if they are intelligent and sensible they absorb a LOT more than someone merely spectating would...

Boo

[Orangeaholic]

So...
I have been checking up on this thread to see the whole debate. I have to say I agree and disagree with some issues (to be expected). Okay first of all the BIG issue "sexism" in the choosing of which events are in the O's. Without a doubt there is gender as an issue. If you recall the wayy beginning of this thread it said "More guys fence, so it's fair" (in layman's terms) Now if you think about the logic.... what the heck kind of logic is that? Thats like saying well... there are more female ice skaters than male so lets just jip the male skaters. I think if the FIE wanted it to be completely fair with everyone they would mix it up 2 male and female events one Olympics and then a different set in the next 4 years. I personally wouldn't want any event to get "left out", but lets face it 10 medals somebody is gonna be angry. We might as well have it completely random from Olympics to Olympics. Earlier there was something said about "Fencing on TV". Ah yes... a popular subject. Okay how much are we supposed to change for the spectators? Clear masks, more exciting events, yadda yadda. I saw very very little fencing on T.V. last year during the Olympics. Looking through a spectators point of view it's all fencing to them. I mean c'mon to most people it's like "The one guy has to poke the other" the people who are really pushing for fencing on T.V. are the fencers who love their game and want to share it(THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH THAT! ). But i think fencing will have a gradual and slow progression through TV, people will start to get the concept and the sport will grow. I don't believe that the certain events on T.V. will suddenly make fencing as popular as swimming in the Olympics. I think that one event "getting the short straw" is irrational. So in conculsion I believe that there is gender bias in the Beijing Olympics that I hope will be subject to change.

Note: These are my own personal opinions, so don't fry me if you don't agree!

~Orange

[achilleus]

Originally Posted by Boo Boo

True. Also some fencing parents are more enlightened and sensible than others - I have met both types. Am assuming Mo is one of the former.

Some are. Having coached kids, and reffed, I've met lots of different types of parents.

Originally Posted by Boo Boo

Very true, although I don't believe that we are talking about any of those aspects of fencing here

Actually, qualifications came up in your post wondering where the high level women on the board were (which Mo commented on) and when Peach mentioned that some members on this board aren't qualified to judge women's sabre fencing.

This was in response to the argument that women's sabre fencing isn't on the same level as WE or WF with Flessel and Vezzali being mentioned. Which, Mo argued against.

Then somebody asked about Mo's ranking. While her opinion is valid, as is anybody's, and certainly carries weight due to her involvement in the sport as a parent, and as an organizer, it's important to keep the distinction that merely watching high level fencing doesn't confer anything, as you implied.

[fencerontheline]

While we're talking about gender roles and mixed sex competitions... an answer has presented itself...


This matter of honor can be settled in a duel!!!

[Peach]

Orangeaholic: I also love orange, but I find it very difficult to read against a white background. Is there any way you could use this wonderful color a teensy bit less?

[prototoast]

Originally Posted by Peach

Orangeaholic: I also love orange, but I find it very difficult to read against a white background. Is there any way you could use this wonderful color a teensy bit less?

I found an easy solution--I just never read any of his posts.

[Orangeaholic]

Originally Posted by Peach

Orangeaholic: I also love orange, but I find it very difficult to read against a white background. Is there any way you could use this wonderful color a teensy bit less?

Oh sorry, heh, i have been getting complaints lately

Maybe I can tune it down just for you Peach

It's hard to resist though!!
~Orange

[Orangeaholic]

Originally Posted by prototoast

I found an easy solution--I just never read any of his posts.

Excuse me? Oh no you didn't! *snaps fingers* His?


~Orange

[PeterGustafsson]

Hi!

Originally Posted by Boo Boo

I do not have a problem with this proposal from the FIE because I am a woman or a foilist, but as a logical and reasonable human being - it is unfair and wrong (and probably unlawful).

Boo

If so, it should be tried in courts. That could be the way out of the logjam.


Have a nice time!

Peter Gustafsson (ME fencer)