MF, ME, MS and WS teams in Beijing Olympics?!

[D+F+P=Hadouken!]

I'm gonna stick my head out here...


Womens saber doesnt appear to be as developed as well as the other 5 disciplines, tactically or technically. Truth be told, womens saber just hasnt been around as long, and hasnt had the time to age like the other weapons. Mind you, the average audience doesnt give a rip, but I think its the wrong move to olympicize an event that isnt quite ripe.

Mind you, our womens saber team is A1, top tier, frickin awesome, but if you compare Mariel Zagunis to Valentina Vezzali or Laura Flessel-Colovic, and ask which two are the better "fencer" it is most certainly the latter two.

[Mo]

Originally Posted by D+F+P=Hadouken!

Mind you, our womens saber team is A1, top tier, frickin awesome, but if you compare Mariel Zagunis to Valentina Vezzali or Laura Flessel-Colovic, and ask which two are the better "fencer" it is most certainly the latter two.

Just because Vezzali and Flessel-Colovic make your teenaged male hormones go on point does not mean they are better fencers.
The not "ripe thing" is just more mud in the water.
All three weapons should have equal representation at the O's.
It is mighty convenient that women get the short straw and will continue to do so.
I am done with this... I am not going to play this game again.

[Boo Boo]

Originally Posted by mrbiggs

I don't think that the favoring of limiting women's events in this case is always sexism, and is certainly not "resentment towards women." There is a rational case for dropping the women's events instead of the men's, and it is not necessarily prejudicial.

What is it then, if not sexism? I don't think this is a "resentment towards women" type of sexism either, but it is on a par with "men should get paid more money for doing exactly the same job, with exactly the same skill and ability and efficiency, than women" sexism.

Just because the sexism is not meant personally or maliciously, don't mean that it isn't wrong.

I do not have a problem with this proposal from the FIE because I am a woman or a foilist, but as a logical and reasonable human being - it is unfair and wrong (and probably unlawful).

Boo

[sabreman]

Sylwia Gruchala would be a marketing dream in the US. Sex appeal (male or female) sells!

http://www.sylwia-gruchala.prv.pl/

[Boo Boo]

Originally Posted by Mo

I am done with this... I am not going to play this game again.

I hope not - well maybe here, but I hope not completely.

I think that the FIE hopes to slip this through quietly and/or please enough of the powerful fencing federation "enough" to ensure that they don't complain about it.

Will approach someone at our federation regarding the matter to see if they are attempting to do anything about it. Maybe that is optimistic, maybe individual federations don't have much power within the FIE (especially smaller one like ours). Also our federation is not a big fan of WF or WE at the moment (for the Senior World Championships, the federation has only selected one WF and no WE...). However, I would guess that the federation would dearly love to see a WS team in the London Olympics: this will not be possible IF the ONLY women's team event for that Olympics is due to be WF... (of course, the FIE could do yet another u-turn by then and there could be another excuse why WF shouldn't be in the Olympics...)

Boo

[D+F+P=Hadouken!]

Originally Posted by Mo

Just because Vezzali and Flessel-Colovic make your teenaged male hormones go on point does not mean they are better fencers.
The not "ripe thing" is just more mud in the water.
All three weapons should have equal representation at the O's.
It is mighty convenient that women get the short straw and will continue to do so.
I am done with this... I am not going to play this game again.

It has nothing to do with flessel or vezzali's looks, there are prettier fencers out there. Nor does it have anything to do with discrimination against women. The fact is though, that somebody IS going to get the short straw, and it might as well be the newest and least developed weapon. Think rationally.

[oiuyt]

Originally Posted by esskreemr

In addition, this voting for the sports to be included was done solely by the Executive committee. Look who's on it. I think the procedure was unfair and non-inclusive of the general Congress. Is nobody willing to raise a stink about this? I think it's high time the foil fencers start asking questions about the decisions of the epee-favoring executive committee.

Only the EC was voting because the vote was for what the EC recommends the Congress do (or not do). The vote that matters (well, at least until another vote that matters comes along, as happened 4 years ago, when the congress voted, and then voted at least 1-2 more times) is the vote taken at the Congress meeting.

Originally Posted by Boo Boo

Maybe that is optimistic, maybe individual federations don't have much power within the FIE (especially smaller one like ours).

I think the power mostly comes down to the confederations of federations. So the BFA would do politicking through the EFC and try to influence other countries there. Or try going to other confederations and convince them to support a gender-equitable solution. Push the BFA to take a strong pro-equity position and to encourage other federations to do the same. Get enough federations doing that and hopefully enough of the federations that don't care strongly one way or the other will do the right thing.

-B :)

[Peach]

Originally Posted by D+F+P=Hadouken!

The fact is though, that somebody IS going to get the short straw, and it might as well be the newest and least developed weapon. Think rationally.

I'm not convinced that argument is terribly rational. It implies that the event which was never fenced because "women shouldn't fence sabre" should continue to be disadvantaged.

In addition, I'm not sure epee and foil fencers are equipped to judge the sophistication of sabre fencing, whether women's or men's. What I have seen here, at least, leads me to believe that foilists and epeeists simply aren't temperamentally equipped to accept that there's complexity of any sort in sabre.

The problem is that the Olympics situation has been framed as a matter of restricted resources which must be divided unequally. That metaphor (a famine one?) limits the possible responses, but unfortunately it's the one the IOC is using to guide its approach and the one the FIE is accepting as reality. The Olympic sport festival has expanded beyond the ability of its present format to cope, and the response has been to try to make the format fit by fighting off some of the expansion. This is rarely a successful strategy.

[millsisland]

[quote=Peach]
In addition, I'm not sure epee and foil fencers are equipped to judge the sophistication of sabre fencing, whether women's or men's. What I have seen here, at least, leads me to believe that foilists and epeeists simply aren't temperamentally equipped to accept that there's complexity of any sort in sabre.


I am in total and complete agreement with this statement, as I can't see it myself.

It is obviously WRONG for WF to be excluded twice in a row- incredibly irrational.

Mills

[Esotamoc]

Originally Posted by Mo

Yes Sista BOO!!! Solidarity is what we need. All fencers, male, female, foil, saber and Epee, all of them need to stick together.
It is unbelieveable how much resentment there is toward women on this board.
I was trying not to be drawn into this argument but alas, I couldn't keep my keyboard to myself.
There really aren't that many high level fencers period on this board. I know of two women sabrists who post here at times and most of the more vocal guys are not way up there in the ranks. I believe Army Fencer is one of the best male fencers on the board who is truly trying for the O's.
Don't know for sure about other people's national rankings.

What's your national ranking? Just curious

[Inquartata]

Originally Posted by D+F+P=Hadouken!

Womens saber doesnt appear to be as developed as well as the other 5 disciplines, tactically or technically.

And it never will be. If mere time is the standard, WS will ALWAYS be newer and "less developed" than the other weapons. For that matter, MS is younger than either foil or epee in international competition. Maybe we should drop that, too? And if the FIE is still not satisfied, which of foil or epee is the latter to have started being fenced? We can get rid of it, too.

Truth be told, womens saber just hasnt been around as long, and hasnt had the time to age like the other weapons. Mind you, the average audience doesnt give a rip, but I think its the wrong move to olympicize an event that isnt quite ripe.

Who gets to decide when it IS "ripe"? You? Me? Mr. Roch? Mr. Rogge? Epeeists and foilists? Chauvinistic male European FIE Congress members?

[prototoast]

Originally Posted by Inquartata

Who gets to decide when it IS "ripe"? You? Me? Mr. Roch? Mr. Rogge? Epeeists and foilists? Chauvinistic male European FIE Congress members?

Well... yes.

[oso97]

Originally Posted by Mo

It is unbelieveable how much resentment there is toward women on this board.

I'm sorry, did the crack you were smoking go to your head? Resentment towards women? You're WAYYYYYY of base, lady.

[Capt. Slo-mo]

Originally Posted by oso97

I'm sorry, did the crack you were smoking go to your head? Resentment towards women? You're WAYYYYYY of base, lady.

And yet, you chose to:
1. Intimate that the basis of her freely expressed opinion was the result of illegal drug activity.

2. Address her in a clearly condescending manner, with the "lady" appellation intended to show everyone your dismissiveness.

Neither bolsters your argument...in fact, it seems to reinforce hers. If you had been around on the board in years gone by, especially when WS was first admitted to the O's, you would have seen a number of quite sexist remarks being thrown around, particularly at the women sabrists.

Others on this board have also noted the sometimes misogynistic attitudes towards women...included Boo in this thread alone.

Are they all crackheads as well, or is that just your best response to someone who disagrees with you?

As someone who has a fencer in the WS world, I think it's entirely sexist to contemplate keeping all the men's events and limiting the women's.
The US women sabrists have shown they deserve to compete on the same international stage as the other fencers.

Does that make me a crackhead, too?

[Boo Boo]

Originally Posted by Capt. Slo-mo

Others on this board have also noted the sometimes misogynistic attitudes towards women...included Boo in this thread alone.

Are they all crackheads as well, or is that just your best response to someone who disagrees with you?

My recent illegal substance test probably confirms that I am not a crackhead (or on any dodgy drugs of any description...)

Originally Posted by Capt. Slo-mo

As someone who has a fencer in the WS world, I think it's entirely sexist to contemplate keeping all the men's events and limiting the women's.

As I said above, sexism needn't be personal or malicious. To be honest, I didn't take the sexism here as "resentment towards women" - I think it is more like "supporting a sexist proposal against women" (that "protects" the men's "rights"...)and apathy towards equality...

I am just very lucky - I have been born, brought up and lived in an environment were sexism is virtually non-existant. Whenever I come against it - or apathy towards equality - it completely phases me. The same with racism.

On a more constructive note (since forums like this can only be used to draw attention to issues and not, generally, solve them...), I have emailed my federation to ask their position on this issue.

Boo

[sabreman]

>>What's your national ranking? Just curious

Not sure they give out rankings for non fencing WS parents. LOL!

[sabreman]

>>
As I said above, sexism needn't be personal or malicious. To be honest, I didn't take the sexism here as "resentment towards women" - I think it is more like "supporting a sexist proposal against women" (that "protects" the men's "rights"...)and apathy towards equality...
>>

But there is also a weapon - gender bias that you are ignoring. I personally didn't think WS should have been added at the expense WTF. I was attacked for this belief (also for bringing up Poz's views on WS) and also for questioning the development of the weapon. Sure I might have taken a harsh or sarcastic tone but I never labeled anyone or threatened harssement.

[oso97]

For the record, I actually COACH women's sabre fencers (and currently equally one half my students currently are women, so :P ). And as a regional tournament adminstrator, I've been on the front lines of getting equal competitive opportunities for women. In the regional circuit I set up, all tournaments were required to hold events in all six weapons, none of this "we'll hold the women's events if enough show up, otherwise they can fence mixed" kind of a thing that was so popular before that. And lo and behold, once you start having the events, it doesn't take that long before the numbers and caliber start rising dramatically. So, thank you, I've established my bonifides as a genuine "non-women hater."

And yes, I too think its crazy that we can't have enough medals to be able to run all the events we have at the World Championships. But I think if we can't do that, then it should be 2 men's teams, 2 women's teams, done on a rotating basis.

But, irregardless of what has gone on in the past (wakeup, we're in the 21st century now people, and a new season is about to begin, forget about what happened previous), to say that this board is now full of mysogenists who resent women? Or that don't support women's fencing? Because that, IMHO, is a case of viewing the world through a very skewed prism. This board is full of vocal, expressive women, who have no problem stating their beliefs, and men, who welcome those posts, and treat them as equals (to be agreed with and disagreed with). When someone invokes "because you disagree with me, you're a sexist" is to lower the standards of the debate. My post was intended to illustrate this in the most dramatic way I could.

Originally Posted by sabreman

But there is also a weapon - gender bias that you are ignoring. I personally didn't think WS should have been added at the expense WTF. I was attacked for this belief (also for bringing up Poz's views on WS) and also for questioning the development of the weapon.

This is exactly what I'm talking about. It is NOT sexist to say that WS should no have been added at the perminant expense of WTF. And I say this as a sabre fencer and coach. With female students.

Again, 2 men's team events, 2 women's team events, rotating. That should solve the problem, equitably, if the IOC is going to have its head up its rear. Either that, or our estmeed FIE pres needs to utlize some of these federations that are so beholden to him to put some pressure on their own olympic federations.

[esskreemr]

We could always hit the IOC with a guilt trip, not that it will work:

Well, we [the FIE] have been trying to increase women's opportunities in our sport. We now have conteste World Championships for both genders in all weapons. Unfortunately, we are unable, due the limitations imposed by the IOC, to increase the Olympic opportunities that we can offer for women...

I have a feeling that Rogge is still holding out hope to be able to slip golf or rugby in to the 2012 lineup. It will come up again before the cutoff point.

[sabreman]

>>
Again, 2 men's team events, 2 women's team events, rotating. That should solve the problem, equitably, if the IOC is going to have its head up its rear. Either that, or our estmeed FIE pres needs to utlize some of these federations that are so beholden to him to put some pressure on their own olympic federations.
>>

As I mentioned the Russians were able to keep Men's Sabre Team in the 2004 OG even though the FIE had picked WTF and MTS to be eliminated by straw vote. So it is possible to make changes outside of the FIE.