MF, ME, MS and WS teams in Beijing Olympics?!

[achilleus]

Originally Posted by Boo Boo

Ok, REALLY it is the fault of the IOC - no more medals (or competitors) makes life very difficult.

I agree. The IOC is the enemy here, and FIE needs to do something about it besides this lame dropping certain team events from the Olympics.

Originally Posted by Boo Boo

It would have been unfair NOT to allow WS into the Olympics. I don't do sabre, but I am realistic. So something had to be done to make room.

Adding WS was unfair to the competitors that had trained for so long in WF. To me, that was more unfair than not adding WS. I was against adding WS at the expense of any established event.

Originally Posted by Boo Boo

Originally, I believe, WF and MS were drawn as the team events not to happen in Athens. There was so much complaining, that it was decided that MS team COULDN'T be excluded.

Yup. That's what happened, but it's important to realize that the complaining was mostly by the countries whose MS teams were the strongest. After all, when it comes to the Olympics, the NGB's want medals regardless of gender...

Originally Posted by Boo Boo

To be honest, you are being sexist - if the IOC will not give more medals, then there should there should be a 50/50 split men/women for the team events: it is only fair. Otherwise it is not equality.

Equality that is made by taking away from others never lasts.

[Boo Boo]

Originally Posted by RebelFencer

Yes, a 50/50 split would be the absolute fairest way to go about things, but the fact of the matter is that the IOC is being idiotic for limiting medals in the first place...I mean, how much could 6 extra medals cost them?

Yes - agree with you totally.

Originally Posted by RebelFencer

But the fact of the matter is that if something is to be added it shouldn't be at the expense of another, regardless of gender. So you can go ahead and blindly accuse me of being sexist, which couldn't be further from the truth, but I'm just being honest.

But that is EXACTLY what is happening! Women's foil has been in the Olympics since 1924 (individual) and 1960 team. Women's epee joined in 1996 (individual and team) and women's sabre (individual) in 2004. Women's foil is an established weapon and has been excluded twice from the Olympics due to the sexism of the FIE - who obviously can't bear to exclude a men's event...

I am not saying that women's foil should not be excluded ever ("why should women's foil suffer at the cost of WE and WS?"). But that seems to be exactly what you are saying about the men's events... "why should men's events suffer at the cost of womens?".

The reason why WF, WE and WS are not as established as men's events in the Olympics is because of sexism in the first place - women were too delicate to fence, then to fence competitively, then to fence epee, then to fence sabre. Why should the likes of Zagunis et al be punished for the beliefs of their great, great grandparent's generation?

If the IOC will not give us extra medals - which it wont - then what do we do? I am sorry, but I don't believe that WF team should be excluded for two out of every three Olympics (whilst each of the men's events is held at every olympics)? It just is not fair or just.

Originally Posted by RebelFencer

But I disagree that someone else besides the IOC should be penalized for this.

Well that aint going to happen. The IOC is a subjective, greedy organisation (or group of individuals). They have all the power regarding the Olympics.

So the FIE has to make the most of things.

Originally Posted by RebelFencer

So if I am sexist by disagreeing with this, does it make me racist to disagree with reparations or how affirmative action is being applied?

I don't know about this issues.

However, if a group of Chinese immigrants moves into a small town in mid-West America and pay the same water rates as everyone else. I would hate to see that town say "push off and find your own water - you aren't drinking from our reservoir". If you said that was alright, I would think you a racist...

If resources are limited, then share and share alike in a fair way - regardless of gender, race or religion.

Believe it, or not, I am not a raving feminist - I just see extreme unfairness here and really do not agree with your arguments for it...

Boo

[Boo Boo]

Originally Posted by achilleus

Equality that is made by taking away from others never lasts.

Then what would you do, in the current situation (women's sabre is now in - so you can't just say it never happened...)? Do you have another more equitable solution?

Boo

[ChubbyHubby]

1. Scrap all team events
2. Have all 6 individuals events
3. Allow more fencers in each individual events
4. Run Olympics more like a World Champ by having poules etc rather than DE straight off, and run each event over two days
5. Award Men/Women Team medals by aggregate results from individual events
6. Run World Team Champs between Olympics and ParaOlympics at the same venue.

This will have the effect of:

1. Including all weapons/genders
2. Roughly same number of days of competition
3. 8 medals (6 ind, 2 "team") - so no change in number of medals

[lefty_monster]

Originally Posted by Boo Boo

According to the "Special Rules" letter posted on the FIE website (was pointed in the right direction by Estoc), MF, ME, MS and WS are the proposed team events in the next Olympics - WF (again) and WE will miss out.

http://www.fie.ch/download/letters/...in%2005-ANG.pdf

The FIE argues that more men fence than women, so this is perfectly acceptable

Personally I don't think it is - the FIE basically promised that WF would be back in for the next Olympics... Would imagine that, internationally, there will be a lot of peeved women foilists...

The good news for WF is that it should be the proposed women's team event for 2012 (London)...

Boo

BOOOOO!!!

those are the two dang weapons that i do!!

I thought olympic fencing had graduated out of the midieval times!! what, are they afraid we're going to trip on our petticoats?!

[PeterGustafsson]

Hi!


How about a concerted effort to get fencers as IOC delegates? Of the 80-something (IIRC) IOC delegates, there are several with fencing experience, and then some more who come from countries which can expect fencing medals on a regular basis.

If (yes, I know it is a long-term perspective) more IOC members are fencing-friendly, why could we not get 12 events, and more competitors to boot? Several baseball/softball teams mean a lot of people (competitors, staff, dedicated journalists)

Note that Baseball/softball are only big a few countries, and that no IOC delegates (IIRC) from the other countries have backgrounds from those sports. Thanks goodness pentathlon stayed on.


Have a nice time!

Peter Gustafsson

FWIIW: The chairman of the Sw. fencing federation did a good run for the post as chairman of the Sw. sports federation earlier this year, against the candidate suggested by all the big sports. So, it can be done.

[RebelFencer]

Originally Posted by DHCJr

How about we keep your argument, but change it slightly. I just don't see why the Foil and Epee events should be penalized because of adding a new Sabre event. I really do think it's a huge shame that team WF is being eliminated...but why eliminate one of our Foil/Epee events because we added something for the Sabreists?

very good call, I like it.

[sreckiki]

There's another solution. Why do not organize some mixte team events? 2 women and 2 men in each weapon. The women in a team fence the women in the other team, and same thing for men. You go to 40 and that's it. Maybe that needs some thinking about the formula but I would like it.

I've already fenced in a mixte team during an italian relay and that was really fun!

That was just my 2 cents.

[PeterGustafsson]

Hi!

Originally Posted by sreckiki

There's another solution. Why do not organize some mixte team events? 2 women and 2 men in each weapon.

That was just my 2 cents.

The idea has been floated before. However, IOC has said in no uncertain terms that events which are gender-combined team events will not make the cut. Team events which are "mathematical" - rather than relays and real team sports (soccer, hockey, etc) are also at great risk.

A team fencing event with two teams fighting - all fencers at once, as an army - would not fall under that criterion, and would be interesting to watch!


Have a nice time!

Peter Gustafsson

[AllisonT]

[quote=ChubbyHubby][list=1][*]Scrap all team events[*]Have all 6 individuals events
QUOTE]

This makes the most sense to me. The team events are usually made up of fencers who are competing individually anyway, so they get a second chance at a medal.

Talk about boring the viewing public! Team events just go on forever.

[edew]

The current relay format for the team events are the most exciting part of fencing. Everyone loves the team events.

[DHCJr]

As Peter said the mixed format has been proposed and rejected by the IOC, because it was not used in the World Championship.

The problem also is we keep having an Us versus Them. Whenever you have limited amount of resources (medals) and add a mouth to feed (event) you have to take away from another. It is a great way to divide and conquer. We keep dividing into groups by different criteria (race, age, religion, sex, socio-economic, political affiliation, activity). In 2010, I am going to fight it in a small way. When the census form comes around, under Race, I will write in Other, HUMAN.

I don't know a solution, but I don't like the Us versus Them, no matter who the Us or Them is.

[achilleus]

Originally Posted by Boo Boo

Then what would you do, in the current situation (women's sabre is now in - so you can't just say it never happened...)? Do you have another more equitable solution?

Boo

That's just it. There is no equitable solution other than convincing the IOC to allow all 6 events. That's what has to be done.

Equality or fairness won't happen until that's done.

In my worthless (on this matter) opinion, I think WS should be dropped until it can be added without taking anything away from anyone else. The issue now, is that the FIE wants more women, and wants the US to win medals, so WS and team WS will be in for quite a while...

[AllisonT]

Originally Posted by edew

The current relay format for the team events are the most exciting part of fencing. Everyone loves the team events.

Edew, I was talking about the non-fencing public finding it boring. I didn't make that clear at all. Mea culpa.

I certainly don't want to cover the IOC/FIE/TV-friendly issue, as it has been discussed on this board to the point where we should all be awarded a doctoral degree. BUT, the non-fencing, viewing public may not find it as exciting as "everyone" else.

[sabreman]

>>
Adding WS was unfair to the competitors that had trained for so long in WF. To me, that was more unfair than not adding WS. I was against adding WS at the expense of any established event.
>>

I agree with the above and I believe this was what most of the fencing power nations voted for (not to include WS in 2004 OC Games).

Also from what I can remember the Russians threatened legal action if men's team sabre was eliminated from the 2004 OC games.

[Mo]

You guys still don't see it. Boo does.

The US Women sabrists are the best in the world. At most World events they finish quite nicely. They are bringing publicity to the sport.

Big corporations finance the Olympics, big AMERICAN corporations.

They like people that win. Women Sabrists are winning. They are earning medals. Mariel Z won the first GOLD medal that had been won ever by a US Person and Sada J and Mariel Z won the first fencing medals for anyone in 100 years.

The very people you say have no right to fence are the ones who are going to keep fencing for everyone by keeping a BIG CORPORATION INTEREST in fencing and winning. The winning is absolutely part of the equation.
Fencing is traditionally a white guy EURO Sport. Now it is a women's sport and the women are getting the publicity for it.

Deal with it.
Too bad the IOC hasn't seen this but I am sure they will soon. Follow the money.....

[achilleus]

Originally Posted by Mo

You guys still don't see it. Boo does.

The US Women sabrists are the best in the world. At most World events they finish quite nicely. They are bringing publicity to the sport.

Big corporations finance the Olympics, big AMERICAN corporations.

They like people that win. Women Sabrists are winning. They are earning medals. Mariel Z won the first GOLD medal that had been won ever by a US Person and Sada J and Mariel Z won the first fencing medals for anyone in 100 years.

The very people you say have no right to fence are the ones who are going to keep fencing for everyone by keeping a BIG CORPORATION INTEREST in fencing and winning. The winning is absolutely part of the equation.
Fencing is traditionally a white guy EURO Sport. Now it is a women's sport and the women are getting the publicity for it.

Deal with it.
Too bad the IOC hasn't seen this but I am sure they will soon. Follow the money.....

Oh, I get the logic. I understand, and mentioned it above why the FIE wants WS in.

But, that doesn't make it fair or right to exclude others. Just like I disapprove of Lexan masks, and other questionable alterations to our sport for the sake of television, so do i disapprove of taking away from one group to give to another. Regardless of sex, weapon, religion, sexuality, etc...

And as for getting big corporations interested, the only ads I see on TV that include fencers feature the Smarts. Neither of whom won a medal, and neither is a woman sabrist.

I hope I'm wrong, but I'm betting the IOC won't notice because other sports still garner far more attention and money than fencing. Especially in the US.

[Mo]

Originally Posted by achilleus

Oh, I get the logic. I understand, and mentioned it above why the FIE wants WS in.

But, that doesn't make it fair or right to exclude others. Just like I disapprove of Lexan masks, and other questionable alterations to our sport for the sake of television, so do i disapprove of taking away from one group to give to another. Regardless of sex, weapon, religion, sexuality, etc...

Do "others" include women Sabrists? It is not right to take away from anyone but it is not the fault of women sabrists. Face it, women usually get left overs. That is the way of things.
What you are saying is that even though Saber has been in the O's since the beginning, it is not necessary to have them women in it too.
The event should have been added. There is no necessary building to erect, there is no special equipment needed, it is all there. Remember the wild protests when one male event was cancelled? When it came to women's events where is the protest.
All this stuff is crap.
The entire reason there was not women's saber is because all the other ilk of fencers especially the men, say, "we have ours, screw everyone else" especially when the everyone else is uppity women who want a level playing field.
Remember, well behaved women rarely make history.

[Boo Boo]

Well put Mo.

Olympic Medals/"number of competitors" are resources for fencers and not possessions - IF there are a limited number of resources (i.e. the IOC will not give us enough), then we need to find a way to share fairly.

WFs were incredibly annoyed when their team medal was taken away - it was part way through the Olympic cycle: any serious international athlete/team/federation is already part way through their Olympic cycle by then... that is incredibly annoying.

Part of the argument at the time was that a rotation will take place to make this fair. That is obviously not happening in a fair manner - since WF team is proposed to be excluded next time...

I think Mo has hit the nail on the head - "we have ours, screw everyone else".

Boo
(thinks too many kids around here had problems sharing the toys with new kids at pre-school... )