Where and when did the flick originate?

[jeff]

This question came up in a private e-mail conversation with somebody not on this board. Does anybody know when and what country or team originated and popularized the flick, and how it got spread through international foil fencing?

thanks, Jeff

[Purple Fencer]

I'd always heard it originalted with German epeeists...trying to throw the point around the guard...foilists saw it and adapted the technique.

[VERITAS]

One story I remember reading some time ago was that the Soviets killed off all educated or free-thinking members of the populace - including all the fencing masters - and suddenly realized they had noone to train their Olympians to fence.
So the Communists re-invented fencing from the point of view of scoring as efficiently as possible - using fast flicking attacks.

Forgive me if my memory has completely fooled me; I am not sure what this is from.

Of course the flick only makes sense with an electric scoring apparatus, as human judges can fairly easily distuinguish flicking from thrusting, so that at least narrows the range timewise.

I hadn't heard the version that the German epeeists started it...I had the impression that flicking was always much more of a foil trick and wouldn't work with epee, but I must be mistaken. I guess it makes sense, at least in that the word flick clearly comes from German.

I wonder what the earlist fencing book containing instruction in the flick is...

[gatorjosh]

ive flicked many times on the wrist in epee.

[garyhayenga]

Originally Posted by VERITAS

I wonder what the earlist fencing book containing instruction in the flick is...

I don't think I've ever seen a fencing book containing instruction in the flick.

I do know that in the late 1980's a junion fencer named Joshua Huttenbach went to train in Germany and came back with this new move that almost no one in the U.S. had seen where he would march down the strip with his arm back and then whip the point down over your shoulder and hit you on the shoulder blade. If you tried to attack into his preparation he would do a powerful counter-six then whip the point down over your shoulder and hit you on the shoulder blade. He was very successful against the U.S. Juniors and even had some success in the NAC's until the adults figured out that and point-in-line was all he knew how to do and stopped letting him do it.

In 1987 the Junior World Championship was won by a German named Alexander Koch whose primary game was bounding forward making sweep-flick to the back. He didn't do that exclusively, but he did do it as often as he could get away with. Which was for most of the next year as he won the Senior World Championship in 1988 with the same style. Both of these events took place in the U.S. so I got to see them. Very few of the other competitiors, including the other Germans, used the flick much, if at all, in those competitions.

In the next few years it became very popular obivously. Someone other than a German may have invented it, but at that time very few people seemed to have even seen it before.

gary hayenga

[fencingguy]

Originally Posted by VERITAS

One story I remember reading some time ago was that the Soviets killed off all educated or free-thinking members of the populace - including all the fencing masters - and suddenly realized they had noone to train their Olympians to fence.
So the Communists re-invented fencing from the point of view of scoring as efficiently as possible - using fast flicking attacks.

Forgive me if my memory has completely fooled me; I am not sure what this is from.

Of course the flick only makes sense with an electric scoring apparatus, as human judges can fairly easily distuinguish flicking from thrusting, so that at least narrows the range timewise.

I hadn't heard the version that the German epeeists started it...I had the impression that flicking was always much more of a foil trick and wouldn't work with epee, but I must be mistaken. I guess it makes sense, at least in that the word flick clearly comes from German.

I wonder what the earlist fencing book containing instruction in the flick is...

The german term for flicking is actually "bingo" so the idea that Flick is "clearly german" is a bit inaccurate.

While the flick may have been invented in any number of countries it was primarily popularized by the germans from the club in Bonn. They used it, combined with a marching attack, to dominate international foil in the 80's. Their success led to it's being adopted by most other nations. While they are not as dominant as they once were you could still tell Bonn foilist by their flick heavy style. For most americans see Felix and Florian Reichling for appropriate examples, or Corey Werk.

[fencerontheline]

Originally Posted by garyhayenga

I do know that in the late 1980's a junion fencer named Joshua Huttenbach went to train in Germany and came back with this new move that almost no one in the U.S. had seen where he would march down the strip with his arm back and then whip the point down over your shoulder and hit you on the shoulder blade. If you tried to attack into his preparation he would do a powerful counter-six then whip the point down over your shoulder and hit you on the shoulder blade. He was very successful against the U.S. Juniors and even had some success in the NAC's until the adults figured out that and point-in-line was all he knew how to do and stopped letting him do it.

Josh has showed up at my club a couple times recently and has done footwork.

I wonder how he's going to fence on the new timings....

[achilleus]

Originally Posted by VERITAS

One story I remember reading some time ago was that the Soviets killed off all educated or free-thinking members of the populace - including all the fencing masters - and suddenly realized they had noone to train their Olympians to fence.
So the Communists re-invented fencing from the point of view of scoring as efficiently as possible - using fast flicking attacks.

Well, the Soviet powers did alter fencing greatly, but not for the reason above.

After WWII, the Soviets really focused on sports. At that time, the powerhouses in the sport all had a rich and long culture of fencing going back a long time(France, Italy, etc...). The Soviets didn't, and this allowed them the freedom to approach fencing with a vastly different outlook. They approached fencing as sport all unto it's own, and trained their fencers as any other athlete in the system.

To this end, in my understanding, they were the ones who developed and started the bent arm attack and the flick. No, they didn't rely on it, nor was it the huge sweeping flick that the Germans had huge success with. But it was the beginning.

[Grasshopper]

A long time ago in a galaxy far far away...FLICK!

Nobody knows where it originated...All that is known is that Darth Roche destroyed it.

[D'Art]

The reason I heard was when foil became fully electrified (internationally at least) and blades could be more flexible, the Germans realised they could get away with lighter touches and the flick developed from there, probably coming from placement hits to the collarbone.

Of course I could (and usually am) miles from the truth here, but thats what I was told

[yeoldearmourer]

I was usingn flicks back in the 70 in epee for over the bell guard shot. But I did fence foil in 79 in a New york Nac and had the number 1 rank Candian fencer in my pool and I start to flick to the ribs and he go not stop it. The ref called out the scroe and it dawn on me I was winnig 4 -0 so I stated to fencing foil lost it 5-4 my opperent was more upset with for not betting him.

[Kiwifencer]

My understanding was that it developed in Germany, as Emil Beck (he of Tauber..) decided that a fencer didn't need to do the 'traditional' moves - if you could get away with such an action then all the better...

Endres, Koch were prime examples of this method and teaching, whereas their older team mates - Behr, Gey were still more of the traditional point in line/ point in front.

However note the early flick actions were (mostly) reactions.. the march was a preparation, and if there was an attack, a sweeping sixte parry (or similar - Endres favoured septime from memory) or if the opponent looked for the blade or did nothing..they got hit. A line etc that was not dealt with got paid - It had the priority.

My question is when did the tendency to call the preparation an attack, and not pay the attack in preparation come about?? Whose fault is it???!!!!!

I was trained to do bent arm marching type actions, but if there was an attack in preparation - it had to be dealt with - you could only hit if there was no reaction from the opponent or they looked for the blade...

For examples see Germany vs USSR - 1989 World Champs - teams (Shevtchenko & Golobutski were flicking, but mostly with ripostes..Endres & Koch with 'attacks')

R Tucker - Cuba for the bent arm (with the point behing him at times) being given the attack.. see 1997 Worlds Champs -Teams (some paid, some not though..)

[schlager7]

Originally Posted by achilleus

After WWII, the Soviets really focused on sports. At that time, the powerhouses in the sport all had a rich and long culture of fencing going back a long time(France, Italy, etc...). The Soviets didn't, and this allowed them the freedom to approach fencing with a vastly different outlook. They approached fencing as sport all unto it's own, and trained their fencers as any other athlete in the system.

True, immediately following the Communist Revolution and the end of WWI, the Soviet powers considered the Olympics and other international sporting competitions as so much elitist decadence. Additionally, fencing masters, primarily a field dependant upon a largely aristocratic patronage, did not fare well. (Russia had never had a large body of native instructors, most being imports from Germany and Italy). Many of the fencing masters fled.

After WWII there was a new outlook and winning Olympic medals (in ANY AND ALL events) became very important as proof of the superiority of the Soviet model. In fencing, they were able to think outside the box and counter to tradition, because the people studying international level fencing, while often coaches of one type or another, were not fencing instructors.

They saw what worked and what did not in setting off the light. There was no "tradition" of fencing at play here. They went on to great success in international competitions. Other nations watched what they did and emulated and improved (word choice appropriate depending on your point of view) upon it.

I have read a number of accounts be folks that feel it was here, in the post-WWII international, elite fencing competitions that the really noticeable divide began between what we now call "sport" and "classical" fencing. If the Russians invented the flick (and I know nothing to say that they did or did not), for a fact, it was the Germans who first really seem to have made great strides with it.

[sabreur]

I heard that fencing was once a perfect sport, honorable and clean. God was speaking to Satan one day, and said, "Behold my sport, fencing, is it not a good servant?" And Satan said, "Yes, but it doesn't have face the realities of modern televised sport--let me have my way with it for a time, and I will make it curse its maker..." And God took the bet.

Hence flicks, lexan masks, wireless fencing with totally irrational strictures on RF technology, Rene the Roach,....

MR

[esskreemr]

Originally Posted by sabreur

I heard that fencing was once a perfect sport, honorable and clean. God was speaking to Satan one day, and said, "Behold my sport fencing, is it not a good servant?" And Satan said, "Yes, but it doesn't have face the realities of modern televised sport--let me have my way with it for a time, and I will make it curse its maker..." And God took the bet.

Hence flicks, lexan masks, wireless fencing with totally irrational strictures on RF technology,....

MR

I'm just curious. Instead of courting the IOC, or perhaps as a parallel action, why not go after the sponsors and ask them what they want. They are inevitibly the ones who the IOC cares about. Sponsors mean tv time, tv time means money, money is the modern Olympic ideal. We can change all we want to fit the tv crowd, but, sorry it isn't going to happen. Look at golf, golf is the most boring sport ever to watch on tv, unless you know what's going on. Every year, however, you can watch just about every major golf tournament on many different channels. They have the sponsors. Interestingly enough, that's exactly why they DON'T want to be included in the Olympics, they would have to share a piece of their pie...

[schlager7]

Originally Posted by esskreemr

Look at golf, golf is the most boring sport ever to watch on tv, unless you know what's going on. Every year, however, you can watch just about every major golf tournament on many different channels. They have the sponsors. Interestingly enough, that's exactly why they DON'T want to be included in the Olympics, they would have to share a piece of their pie...

Also, international level golf already has its share of very prestigious competitions. As an entry in the Olympics, they worry that once every 4 years there would be an extra event to distract and detract from their well-established circuits.

[Sciurus-Rex]

It began one hot summer night in an Iowa corn field in 1964. Three young Republican anarchists were looking for something else to do after gluing fake body hair on each other. The first youth suggested a fried-liver juggling contest, but he was soundly dismissed by his cohorts because it was the eve of St. Gretchen and cell phones hadn't been invented yet. The second suggested instead that they dig elaborate bar graphs in the soil throughout the field, representing key economic and homosexual indicators. As legend has it, the first boy thought that was boffo, and immediately began establishing the X-Y axiseses ... axiis ... axes ... whatever. It was at this moment, however, that the third cohort realized he'd left a radio sitting in his bathtub at home, and that his great aunt Petrifica would be heading upstairs for her evening soapy soak. Fortunately, the driver of a passing laundry truck (making late rounds) saw the lad and offered a ride out of the country. The man was looking for an excuse to drive to Canada anyway, because he'd heard that nuns there paid top dollar for stolen pelicans which he hoped to smuggle some day. He also had surprisingly understated body odor. The first two troublemakers, still enrapt in their shenanigans, merely waved good-bye as their schoolmate disappeared over the hill. They were dead by morning.

And thus, the flick was born.

[edew]

Very good piece of writing.

[GGK]

I was told (and therefore have no backup on this) that before electrical came into play that the Italians had moves that we would now call a flick. (Although it was the smaller subtler kind, not the point at the ceiling behind your head kind.) They could do this since the blades were whippy and they had their handles strapped to their wrists. But when electric came into the picture the foils required a slot in the blade, and the blades were stiffened so they would not break.
Time passes blades, get softer, the flick reemerges.
Well that's how I heard it. (And I have seen septuagenarian fencers (with wrist straps) flick the tip around parries and deny they were flicking.)

[reposte]

I also heard the the German coach from Epee story, but that is the beggining of how flick came to be implemented in Epee.
The coach who introduced it was Alexander Putsch and rumour has it that it was during observing fencers while he imself was doing work as a genitor.
The flick in foil began simply as means to win, the Germans take sport very seriously and give winning a lot of thought.

However, the move of the flick itself was originaly called "Spanish Flick" which suggests where the technique emanated.
I suspect that Spain was a country where tradition to big a role on one hand and where the lack of an accomplished international achievements in fencing on the other prevented them from gaining the - dubious to some - reputation for authenticity.