Sabre point in line/attacks

[Prince Twilight]

How do you use PIL in sabre? If you retreat with it, do you keep your ROW? What if you lunge with it? Last night I got PIL established, my opponent beat, i disengaged, and lunged, simultaneous hits. He told me that I lost the touch... is that right? Also, if your opponent searches for the blade, and I disengage widely, removing the tip from the target, who has ROW?

Second question, if my opponent is retreating and I am attacking, how should I proceed? Is it better to try to run him down and chase him, or push forward with broken rhythm, slowly/moderate speed? How do I preserve my ROW? Do I have to keep extending? What if I reach max extension before I can lunge? In that situation, would it be smart to pull back the arm and begin extending again, like a marchin attack in foil?

[Ordway]

Once you establish PIL in sabre, you can do anything with it: advance, retreat, lunge, etc., and retain ROW. (It *used to* be that you could not advance and retain the PIL's ROW, but this went out something like 10 years ago... still causes confusion though.)

If your opponent *attempts* to beat and you disengage, you will retain ROW *if* you keep the disengage tight enough to stay essentially in line. In other words, a big swoopy disengage will negate the PIL. (If your opponent successfully beats, your PIL's goose is cooked, but you knew that already. Though if he beats on the forte, a good director will call it your parry.)

One other thing to keep in mind: if you disengage *in the absence of an attempted beat/take by the opponent*, then you lose ROW. You can only disengage in response to a genuine attempt to take the blade.

[Schiavona]

Originally Posted by Ordway

If your opponent *attempts* to beat and you disengage, you will retain ROW *if* you keep the disengage tight enough to stay essentially in line. In other words, a big swoopy disengage will negate the PIL.

In a word, no. This is an easy mistake to make, because while you have ROW, or rather, priority, with your PIL you loose it while avoiding (tight or big) any taking of the blade-but regain it since you avoided the taking. If you do this you haven't established PIL but have ROW-which you must use or loose! If your opponent does nothing, you can re-straighten your arm establishing PIL, again.

[mrbiggs]

Originally Posted by Ordway

Once you establish PIL in sabre, you can do anything with it: advance, retreat, lunge, etc., and retain ROW. (It *used to* be that you could not advance and retain the PIL's ROW, but this went out something like 10 years ago... still causes confusion though.)

I know it is true in foil that lunging or fleching negates PIL. I'm not sure if this applies to sabre.

If your opponent beats, your PIL is gone, and has to be reestablished again.

[oiuyt]

Originally Posted by mrbiggs

I know it is true in foil that lunging or fleching negates PIL. I'm not sure if this applies to sabre.

You "know" wrong. The interpretation change that Ordway mentioned (which, as mentioned, occurred clsoe to a decade ago (actually, if I had to guess, I'd estimate ~7-8 years ago)) applies to both foil and sabre. Prior to that change offensive actions (anything going forward) would invalidate PiL. Since that change, footwork became irrelevant to maintaining PiL once established.

-B :)

[Ordway]

Originally Posted by Schiavona

In a word, no. This is an easy mistake to make, because while you have ROW, or rather, priority, with your PIL you loose it while avoiding (tight or big) any taking of the blade-but regain it since you avoided the taking. If you do this you haven't established PIL but have ROW-which you must use or loose! If your opponent does nothing, you can re-straighten your arm establishing PIL, again.

I'm not sure I understand what you're correcting. If Fencer A establishes a point in line, Fencer B attempts to beat, Fencer A disengages, and then Fencer A hits B with the point as B continues onward with his attack, it would be A's touch, no?

Or, in other words, I haven't heard of a tight disengage in response to an attempted beat being called as losing the PIL (and its attendant ROW). I could be wrong, of course; it was quite a while before I understood that disengaging in absence of an attempted beat lost ROW.

[mrbiggs]

Originally Posted by oiuyt

You "know" wrong. The interpretation change that Ordway mentioned (which, as mentioned, occurred clsoe to a decade ago (actually, if I had to guess, I'd estimate ~7-8 years ago)) applies to both foil and sabre. Prior to that change offensive actions (anything going forward) would invalidate PiL. Since that change, footwork became irrelevant to maintaining PiL once established.

-B

Oh, my mistake. I read it in an old edition of American Fencing, it must have been too old.

[oiuyt]

Originally Posted by mrbiggs

Oh, my mistake. I read it in an old edition of American Fencing, it must have been too old.

I'm not sure which CT club you belong to (I think I knew at one point, but don't recall now). Next time you're at Candlewood, I believe Tom has an email (from Bill Oliver? One of the FOCs at any rate) from around the time of the change posted on the wall. Worth reading, as it's a clear explaination of the change (from what I recall of the last time I read it, which was likely over a year ago).

-B :)

[Welted 24/7]

Last night I got PIL established, my opponent beat

Did he beat and MISS, or did he beat successfully? If he missed, it's your touch. If he didn't, it's his touch.

As to your second question...there's no "best" way to attack. It depends on the opponent, the situation, what you feel like, among other things. I have most of my success on attacks from chasing them down and throwing in a few feints so that by the time I'm actually going to attack, they've left themselves wide open. Preserving right of way isn't hard- just don't get your blade taken or let your opponent take over the tempo. You don't have to be extending, and it's really not that great of an idea anyway unless you want to get clocked with a prise de fer.

[mrbiggs]

Originally Posted by oiuyt

I'm not sure which CT club you belong to (I think I knew at one point, but don't recall now). Next time you're at Candlewood, I believe Tom has an email (from Bill Oliver? One of the FOCs at any rate) from around the time of the change posted on the wall. Worth reading, as it's a clear explaination of the change (from what I recall of the last time I read it, which was likely over a year ago).

-B

Haha, yes, that's actually where I got it from. I must have misread.

[Prince Twilight]

Thanks a bunch for the answers so far, this is really a big help. Some things I'm confused about:

1) If my opponent searches for the blade while I have PIL, and I make a big disengage that takes my point off target, he misses his beat, and then we both hit simultaneously... whose point?

2) My coach keeps telling me that my arm needs to be continuously extending throughout my attack. Is this outdated or something?

3) I've always learned that blade control comes from the thumb and index finger, with the back three fingers relaxed. If you can visualize that, basically my blade sits against my back three fingers, and is not pressed against my palm. When I attack, I use my thumb and forefinger to aim my blade and I squeeze the back three to cut. This tuesday I just took a lesson from a new coach (just because I have the oppurtunity) who coaches at a university... he told me some completely new stuff. He said to turn my bell guard always with my wrist, feint with wrist movements, and attack by extending and pressing down with my thumb, having the back fingers follow (but the force comes from the thumb). Which is right, my original way or this new one?

4) In the on guard position, does the bell guard need to face completely to the right or can it be a 45 degree angle? Also, is it important that in my on guard my third line needs to be covered, including the elbow of my sword arm? (the coach I had a lesson from said that it didn't, and made me raise my hand in onguard)

5) What makes the blade stay vertical? I have it vertical because my back fingers are loose... but when I parry it feels weak. Should I be pressing it against my palm, and using wrist to make it vertical?

Sorry, I've been fencing for almost a year but I've been trying to do stuff too fast so I'm going "back to the basics" and picking apart my game. For those of you who have the time to help... thanks a million. Those that don't... you tried

[KD5MDK]

1) His search is a greater error than your removing the line from target, thus your point.

2) All matters like this depend on the ref. However, I have often seen it called "your arm wasn't extending, attack in preparation", and if I can see it clearly I agree.

I won't speak to the posture questions in general as I feel underqualified to them, except to note that a) if you're only holding the blade with 3 fingers when you parry, I think it would be decently feasible to cut through your parry with a strong enough attack. b) I have my guard directly forward in on guard stance.

[shinekomi]

I'm by no means an expert... I'm just throwing my two cents...

3) I was taught the latter way (pressing with the thumb to deliver a cut), and stuck with it because it made sense to me. But to me, it seems like the two methods are acheiving the same thing, and the differences are subtle. As long as you are not delivering the cut from your elbow or shoulder.

4) I've had two coaches teach these different bell guard positions. Yet another one told me to have the bell guard turn slightly to the left instead of the right. There are pros and cons to these bell guard positions: I guess that having the bell guard turned completely to the right is more defensive (protecting your arm), the 45 degrees less defensive, and the straight forward and slightly left position are attack-oriented.

5) I keep my thumb relaxed yet resting on the back of the handle. I was taught that the thumb supports your parries, so it faces in the direction of your parry.

And yeah. Not real clear cut answers, but just what I've observed...

[KShan5[PrFC]]

Originally Posted by Ordway

(If your opponent successfully beats, your PIL's goose is cooked, but you knew that already. Though if he beats on the forte, a good director will call it your parry.)

I was taught that until recently. I don't remember who told me, but I was under the impression that in PIL, if you beat the blade *anywhere*, then it's your beat, that you cannot have a low beat be called as a parry. This rule only applies to PIL, I'm not completely sure on it, but unless the beat hits bell, then it stands. anyone want to clarify?

[Schiavona]

Originally Posted by Ordway

I'm not sure I understand what you're correcting. If Fencer A establishes a point in line, Fencer B attempts to beat, Fencer A disengages, and then Fencer A hits B with the point as B continues onward with his attack, it would be A's touch, no?

Or, in other words, I haven't heard of a tight disengage in response to an attempted beat being called as losing the PIL (and its attendant ROW). I could be wrong, of course; it was quite a while before I understood that disengaging in absence of an attempted beat lost ROW.

I'm picking nits.

Any motion, tight or not, to avoid a beat will most likely be seen by a ref to negate your PIL. BUT-if you sucessfully decieve the beat/blade take you are granted ROW by the ROW Fairy(The Rules), because you decieved, not because of the PIL.

The result is the same-A's touche.

See? Just picking nits.

[edew]

Brad, Holly, et al,

Let's try to get this straight. For both FOIL and SABER, you now can advance, retreat AND lunge after establishing a PIL and still maintain PIL (or rather, RoW).

Previously, the lunge portion was not allowed. You, then, were allowed to advance or retreat, but not make an attack (i.e., lunge) with a PIL. That was changed sometime around 1993 or so, so more than 10 years before. I believe someone might have that missive from George K stating that it wasn't allowed, and then a new one when the FIE "clarified" the PIL with a lunge.

So now, you can advance, retreat, lunge, make disengages against searches, and still retain RoW. Making funky counter-attack moves or moving more than the tip (i.e., moving your whole arm) will invalidate the PIL, but if you combine that movement with an attack, your attack against the (hopefully failed) search will still retain right of way.

[sabreur]

It really comes down to the director. I have had directors tell me that I withdrew my arm, or made a huge disengage with the blade--later, when I reviewed the video, it looked like I did a classic small disengage with the fingers, arm straight, etc.

Many directors just don't believe you executed the line correctly.

Also, very few directors call the search for the blade correctly. As Schiv notes, if your opponent searches for the blade and doesn't find it, ROW passes to you (whether your line was in time or not). You should be able to attack immediately with the point or edge after your opponent makes an unsuccessful search. I used to get this call regularly during the days of steam sabre, but rarely get it today, especially if I attack with the edge.

Finally, many sabre fencers have perfected a search which looks like a change of lines in attack. A feints to low flank, then searches while changing lines to head or chest. B disengages and hits at the same time A does. Very often, the director will give the attack to A. Same thing applies when A starts to chest or head, searches in 4, and finishes to flank.

I usually "try out" a line with a director and see how they call it. If they call the search, then I'll use the line again. Otherwise, I switch to a different tactic.

I'd like to see the line and searches for the blade called more tightly--the line is a really good tool, especially against opponents who rush to attack, and an attack off a missed search is a thing of beauty, IMNSHO. But you have to live with the directors that you have--I have been known to talk to the ref, or even go so far as to show them the video after a pool, which often helps me get the line called my way in later bouts, but you have to be careful--people don't necessarily like to be shown that they screwed up.... However, politely asking them why they made the call they did often helps them see the action better in later bouts.

Cheers, MR

[noodle]

Originally Posted by My FAQ

• Foil/Sabre: What is Point in Line?
  

  
  The point in line exists as the highest level of priority. If it is established correctly, the opponent must avoid it, remove it, or have the fencer with the point in line to no longer have the point in line.
  
  A point in line exists when a fencer has the following conditions met prior to an opponent’s attack:
  

  • weapon arm fully extended
    
  • a straight line from the point of the weapon to the shoulder
    
  • point aimed at valid target
    
  • no movement of the blade except to derobe the opponent’s attempt to find the blade
    
  • is standing still, moving forward, or moving back
    

  
  So, for your PIL to have and retain ROW, you must satisfy all of the conditions listed BEFORE your opponent lauches an attack. You must continue to hold these conditions through your opponent's attack, until your tip lands on their lame. If you break line or disengage, you lose PIL.
  
  Yes, you heard right. You lose PIL if you disengage or move your tip or break your arm. You don't lose it for moving forward or backward. Establishing an unwaivering PIL and getting your opponent to impale themselves on your blade is highly unlikely to happen, as you probably already know. Here's the trick--if your opponent attempts to take or beat your blade when you're in PIL, they are in preparation. If you simply disengage around their take to hit them or break line to start an immediate attack, you have Right of Way. But naturally, there are ways to make fool someone into disengaging/breaking line, and so on and so forth.
  

link

[Prince Twilight]

Okay I think I understand the PIL subtleties a little better now, thanks

Could I get some more feedback on my 5 questions? The responses so far are great, but just some more opinions, especially on the extending arm thing.

"Back to basics" sounds straightforward, but I've found that I really don't know much regarding the finer points of sabre.

[sabreur]

Originally Posted by Prince Twilight

Thanks a bunch for the answers so far, this is really a big help. Some things I'm confused about:

1) If my opponent searches for the blade while I have PIL, and I make a big disengage that takes my point off target, he misses his beat, and then we both hit simultaneously... whose point?

As others have noted, it should be your point, unless you really withdraw your arm and pause before cutting/thrusting.

Originally Posted by Prince Twilight

2) My coach keeps telling me that my arm needs to be continuously extending throughout my attack. Is this outdated or something?

The hand moves constantly forward during the attack. Exactly when preparation ends and the attack begins can be a pretty subtle question.

Originally Posted by Prince Twilight

3) I've always learned that blade control comes from the thumb and index finger, with the back three fingers relaxed. If you can visualize that, basically my blade sits against my back three fingers, and is not pressed against my palm. When I attack, I use my thumb and forefinger to aim my blade and I squeeze the back three to cut. This tuesday I just took a lesson from a new coach (just because I have the oppurtunity) who coaches at a university... he told me some completely new stuff. He said to turn my bell guard always with my wrist, feint with wrist movements, and attack by extending and pressing down with my thumb, having the back fingers follow (but the force comes from the thumb). Which is right, my original way or this new one?

Both are right--you squeeze with the back fingers and push with the thumb. You can make feints from the wrist or with the fingers, or somewhere in between--I favor more finger action. Making the feints with the wrist can lead to larger movements and "clubbing" the sabre.

Originally Posted by Prince Twilight

4) In the