Sabre point in line/attacks

[Inquartata]

Originally Posted by Prince Twilight

1) If my opponent searches for the blade while I have PIL, and I make a big disengage that takes my point off target, he misses his beat, and then we both hit simultaneously... whose point?

Given a good referee ( ah, there's the rub ): yours.

2) My coach keeps telling me that my arm needs to be continuously extending throughout my attack. Is this outdated or something?

No. Your coach is correct. However, there are referees, including quite good ones and top fencers, who seem to gauge attacks by simple forward motion of the fencer. One will hear "he was bringing it to you" and the like. Really this is incorrect; by the rules it is the extending arm which confers the attack. Note that if you begin extending the arm, your final attack must hit at the latest by the time your front foot lands in the lunge portion of an advance-lunge. ( Again, comparatively few refs are calling this at low and intermediate levels, but still, that is the rule. )

3) I've always learned that blade control comes from the thumb and index finger, with the back three fingers relaxed. If you can visualize that, basically my blade sits against my back three fingers, and is not pressed against my palm.

Do you mean that the lower part of the grip is free-floating, only your fingertips touching it?

Try letting the grip rest not against your palm but against the base of your last three fingers. This will give a more secure grasp and better control. You will still be able to get the impetus of the squeeze for your cuts, and will not sacrifice much if any fine control.

I just took a lesson from a new coach (just because I have the oppurtunity) who coaches at a university... he told me some completely new stuff. He said to turn my bell guard always with my wrist, feint with wrist movements, and attack by extending and pressing down with my thumb, having the back fingers follow (but the force comes from the thumb). Which is right, my original way or this new one?

Ah, the joy of many coaches.

There are many roads to Rome. Adopt whichever seems to work best for you and/or makes your primary coach happy.

Also, the sabre environment is always changing, and what works today may be inadequate tomorrow, at least at the top levels.

4) In the on guard position, does the bell guard need to face completely to the right or can it be a 45 degree angle? Also, is it important that in my on guard my third line needs to be covered, including the elbow of my sword arm? (the coach I had a lesson from said that it didn't, and made me raise my hand in onguard)

There is no one right answer. I like to adopt a guard which, when I look at it in the mirror, shows the minimum amount of arm behind it. Pointing the bell off to the outside makes one too vulnerable to the quick attacks in prep and stop cuts which are proliferating with the new timing. IMO, at least. YMMV.

As for covering three, I'd say yes, keep it well covered, and for the same reason: vulnerability to lightning attacks in prep which lock out your light on a less-fast attack. Even ones which whip over the bell will if they lock out your correct attack take points away from you.

However, it's better not even to be in distance to be hit unless you're attacking, ie not in guard position.

5) What makes the blade stay vertical? I have it vertical because my back fingers are loose... but when I parry it feels weak. Should I be pressing it against my palm, and using wrist to make it vertical?

See above---try resting the lower part of the grip against the base of the last three fingers: the very edge of the palm. The wrist really ought not to be bent, IMO.

[kalivor]

Originally Posted by Prince Twilight

1) If my opponent searches for the blade while I have PIL, and I make a big disengage that takes my point off target, he misses his beat, and then we both hit simultaneously... whose point?

Your attack, their counterattack, your point. Note that it's your ATTACK, and no longer your point-in-line.

2) My coach keeps telling me that my arm needs to be continuously extending throughout my attack. Is this outdated or something?

No. This is both (a) good form, and (b) a requirement written into the rules.

4) In the on guard position, does the bell guard need to face completely to the right or can it be a 45 degree angle?

It shouldn't be *completely* to the right. I've seen some very exaggerated sabre en gardes. The further to the right it is, the better your three line is protected, but the bigger the opening you're allowing for a cut to your wrist ... there's no all-encompassing answer here, only the preferences of different coaches and fencers.

Also, is it important that in my on guard my third line needs to be covered, including the elbow of my sword arm? (the coach I had a lesson from said that it didn't, and made me raise my hand in onguard)

It is extremely important that your 3-line is completely covered, including the elbow.

[Prince Twilight]

If I am chasing someone down the strip, when do I start extending my arm? Technically to maintain ROW throughout the chase I must continually do it right? Or is it just the final advance-lunge/advance-advance-lunge/flunge?

[noodle]

Originally Posted by Prince Twilight

1) If my opponent searches for the blade while I have PIL, and I make a big disengage that takes my point off target, he misses his beat, and then we both hit simultaneously... whose point?

it should be your attack, not your point in line.
you lost your point in line when you disengaged, but your opponent never had the attack, as he was searching for the blade. your attack lands, his counterattack is not valid. touch you.

Originally Posted by Prince Twilight

2) My coach keeps telling me that my arm needs to be continuously extending throughout my attack. Is this outdated or something?

no, its right, more or less. its kind of a simplified version of things. if you want a better answer, read the section (i think its in there) thats in my FAQ that i linked above.

Originally Posted by Prince Twilight

3) I've always learned that blade control comes from the thumb and index finger, with the back three fingers relaxed. If you can visualize that, basically my blade sits against my back three fingers, and is not pressed against my palm. When I attack, I use my thumb and forefinger to aim my blade and I squeeze the back three to cut. This tuesday I just took a lesson from a new coach (just because I have the oppurtunity) who coaches at a university... he told me some completely new stuff. He said to turn my bell guard always with my wrist, feint with wrist movements, and attack by extending and pressing down with my thumb, having the back fingers follow (but the force comes from the thumb). Which is right, my original way or this new one?

umm. sorry -- i wrote up a big answer but i forgot we're not talking about foil
both are correct, really, and i don't notice a big difference between the two things you're asking about.

Originally Posted by Prince Twilight

4) In the on guard position, does the bell guard need to face completely to the right or can it be a 45 degree angle? Also, is it important that in my on guard my third line needs to be covered, including the elbow of my sword arm? (the coach I had a lesson from said that it didn't, and made me raise my hand in onguard)

as others already stated, different strokes for different folks.
i don't fence much sabre or teach much, but i tend to teach and use a guard at 45 with an elbow in and hand closing the line. nowadays its so easy to just get a stray shot in through a weakly closed line and get score a touch, you want to make sure that parries are solid and nothing touches you, no elbows or arms sticking out. or at least, thats how i roll.

Originally Posted by Prince Twilight

5) What makes the blade stay vertical? I have it vertical because my back fingers are loose... but when I parry it feels weak. Should I be pressing it against my palm, and using wrist to make it vertical?

my blade's hardly vertical -- its usually at some angle forward so that blades i catch in parries slide to the bell. a vertical blade can be overpowered pretty easily, imo. but once again, thats my amatuer observation, i have no real training in sabre other than what i play around with and observe.

[noodle]

Originally Posted by Prince Twilight

If I am chasing someone down the strip, when do I start extending my arm? Technically to maintain ROW throughout the chase I must continually do it right? Or is it just the final advance-lunge/advance-advance-lunge/flunge?

this all depends, really.

you only need to extend your arm enough to hit them, if its going to be a one-light action.

i feel the best time to start continuously yet slowly extending is once you advance into range that you can be hit by a counterattack or an attack into preparation. once you feel threatened. but once you start extending, you can only extrend so far before you need to start finishing your attack. so its kind of a double-edged sword. take that for what its worth.

[rsy]

Originally Posted by Prince Twilight

If I am chasing someone down the strip, when do I start extending my arm? Technically to maintain ROW throughout the chase I must continually do it right? Or is it just the final advance-lunge/advance-advance-lunge/flunge?

There are those that will disagree, but unless you establish and maintain a PIL, you cannot chase your opponent down the strip and maintain ROW throughout the chase. This is because your attack cannot begin until you are within advance or step-forward-lunge distance and if your are chasing your opponent down the strip, you can't be within that distance. This issue was pretty thoughly discussed in this thread: Refs counting steps. Your attack does not begin until the final advance or step-forward lunge and therefore the only extension that counts is the one that begins before the completion of the step-forward. See, t.75

-r

[rcmatthews]

Something that I would like to add is that the forward motion of your arm need not be large at all. All the rules say is that the arm be extending, not the amount of extension.

If you are moving forward with your arm extending, moving with your opponent down the strip, and they do not parry you, or cause you to break your tempo, I don't believe there is a way that it could not be your attack. At least as I understand the rules, someone please correct me if I am wrong.

[yeoldearmourer]

One of the best foil call I ever saw was at a nac by Jeff Bukis and for once he got it right the attack was so slow that the other fencer thought he had the right of way but failed to notice the slowest extension of the other fencer attack and the tempo was chagene. The referee who as referee at olympics had a big smile on his face when he notice the change of tempo the fencer setup his oppererent and won the gold medal.