[CFML] Re: Where have all the original members gone?

[Christopher J Umbs]

Just speaking for myself of course.
I've never seen much use in discussion groups. I think they're ok for
informing fencers about upcoming tournaments, seminars, and the like,
but there's too many things that can only be shown in person.
Recently on Fencing.net there was a thread discussing why some of
their former experts no longer post there. In that thread, somebody
found a post from the JSA section of Swordforum that I'm afraid I
agree too much with.

Chris

"Why Internet discussions of JSA theory are doomed to failure

I will have been a participant/moderator here at Swordforum for 7
years this August. In that time I've seen hundreds of folks come and
go in the ether. I've met and gotten to know dozens of you--and have
generally been delighted by the experience. And, I've tried to
moderate and participate to the best of my abilities, given the time
constraints of being a physician, an "elder" in my church, and a JSA
study group leader.

Over that time, I have noticed a very sad trend concerning the
participation of MOST--not all--of the folks we consider to be highly
respected in the JSA. I am talking about the higher-ranking or more
experienced instructors--people who have been doing this stuff for 10,
20, 30 years or more--and I don't mean the folks who count their
diaper years as experience in the art. I'm talking about the ones who
have lived in Japan, who have immersed themselves in the training, who
have had the fortune to interact and learn from some of the top
practitioners at the heart of the JSA. I am talking about the folks
who have explored the depths of our training, who have the most
knowledge to share and discuss intelligently from a more practical
training rather than theoretical background. Quite simply, they come
here out of curiosity, contribute valuable information for a while,
and then end up going back into lurk mode or leaving in disgust
altogether.

WHY?! Why do the discussion groups drive these teachers away? Why do
we find our threads limited to relatively benign topics as sword
lengths, brands, and how to get comfortable in tatehiza?

Think about it. Admittance to a "physical" dojo is generally not open
to everyone. Most instructors screen their candidates carefully,
looking for particular indicators that student, teacher and art will
be a good "fit." Even then, the attrition rate is considerable.
Instruction is carried out in person, at a rate determined and
controlled by the instructor, who puts a tremendous amount of energy
into working with each student. Hours a week of personal interaction,
supplemented by hours of individual practice. And THEN there are the
invaluable social hours--those times away from the dojo, when student
and teacher are free to ramble about personal or non-sword-related
topics, during which both gain a greater understanding and
appreciation for who the other person is and what makes him/her tick.
All of this goes into creating the bond of student and teacher in the
JSA.

Now then--contrast this with the Internet. A totally open door dojo
policy, admitting folks of all ages, backgrounds, experiences and
mental states with an entire spectrum of agendas in mind when they
sign in here. Anyone choosing to be an "instructor" of such an unknown
quantity is taking an awful chance--of being misunderstood, insulted,
scolded, flamed--or being undeservedly praised, which in its own way
is just as bad. Even given the premise that most people are inherently
good and well-meaning, there is a far greater chance of conflict and
misunderstanding when we are all so reliant upon the medium of the
printed word.

For one thing, some folks have the liberty of spending hours a day in
discussion here, whereas others of us are limited to 20 minutes every
other day or less. And, dare I say, it is usually the people who have
the most valuable information to impart who actually have the least
amount of free time to do so...For another, we cannot see the facial
expressions, hear the intonations or know the entire background or
mental maturity level of the persons with whom we are discussing
sometimes controversial issues. These are details that would not be
such factors in a face-to-face discussion.

So is it any wonder that instructors generally prefer to spend their
free time instructing conscientious students in person rather than the
anonymous mass in the Internet?

For those of you out there who do not have the fortune of being able
to interact face-to-face with JSA instructors regularly, my heart goes
out to you. It is HUNDREDS of times more satisfying to be present
during the late night hour "Sensei discussions" that occur at the
seminar and other training gettogethers than any Internet discussion I
have EVER seen. Do I get satisfaction from having helped someone on
the Internet? Certainly--but my heart does not burst with pride the
way it does when one of the members of my study group gets
complimented by a Sensei at a seminar.

So, I am going to take a valuable lesson from the many instructors who
have earned my respect over the years. I will continue to be here, and
to moderate, but I will refrain from posting as if I were talking to
members of my study group. Those of you who wish to may certainly PM
or email me with concerns--I do reserve the right to answer--or not--
as I see fit.

And for those of you who continue to "instruct" here--good luck. You
are going to need it.


__________________
In Sangha,
Dr. Diane Mirro
SFI Moderator"


--- In classicalfencing@yahoogroups.com, <1@m...> wrote:
> Dear List,
>
> Kim and I were discussing off list how a number of the original
members of
> this list have either dropped off the list or resigned themselves to
> inactive status.
>
>(...)Chris Umbs (...)
> Why do y'all think some of these folks have dropped off of the list
and why
> do y'all think we don't hear from the others as much as we did in the
> earlier years of this list?
>





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[Sean Hayes]

I think Diane's comments are spot-on. Although I hadn't given it
much specific thought, it sums up a lot of the reasons why I interact
so little on the various fora these days. I am more active on SFI's
Historical European Swordsmanship forum, but I'm very careful not to
become involved in threads unless there's something of specific
interest to me, and something specific I can contribute.

It used to be called the "signal to noise ratio": there's much more
noise than signal, and filtering out the noise is difficult, time-
consuming, and tiresome.

Sean Hayes
Maestro d'armi
Northwest Academy of Arms


On Jul 19, 2005, at 7:09 AM, Christopher J Umbs wrote:

> Just speaking for myself of course.
> I've never seen much use in discussion groups. I think they're ok for
> informing fencers about upcoming tournaments, seminars, and the like,
> but there's too many things that can only be shown in person.
> Recently on Fencing.net there was a thread discussing why some of
> their former experts no longer post there. In that thread, somebody
> found a post from the JSA section of Swordforum that I'm afraid I
> agree too much with.
>
> Chris
>
> "Why Internet discussions of JSA theory are doomed to failure
>
> I will have been a participant/moderator here at Swordforum for 7
> years this August. In that time I've seen hundreds of folks come and
> go in the ether. I've met and gotten to know dozens of you--and have
> generally been delighted by the experience. And, I've tried to
> moderate and participate to the best of my abilities, given the time
> constraints of being a physician, an "elder" in my church, and a JSA
> study group leader.
>
> Over that time, I have noticed a very sad trend concerning the
> participation of MOST--not all--of the folks we consider to be highly
> respected in the JSA. I am talking about the higher-ranking or more
> experienced instructors--people who have been doing this stuff for 10,
> 20, 30 years or more--and I don't mean the folks who count their
> diaper years as experience in the art. I'm talking about the ones who
> have lived in Japan, who have immersed themselves in the training, who
> have had the fortune to interact and learn from some of the top
> practitioners at the heart of the JSA. I am talking about the folks
> who have explored the depths of our training, who have the most
> knowledge to share and discuss intelligently from a more practical
> training rather than theoretical background. Quite simply, they come
> here out of curiosity, contribute valuable information for a while,
> and then end up going back into lurk mode or leaving in disgust
> altogether.
>
> WHY?! Why do the discussion groups drive these teachers away? Why do
> we find our threads limited to relatively benign topics as sword
> lengths, brands, and how to get comfortable in tatehiza?
>
> Think about it. Admittance to a "physical" dojo is generally not open
> to everyone. Most instructors screen their candidates carefully,
> looking for particular indicators that student, teacher and art will
> be a good "fit." Even then, the attrition rate is considerable.
> Instruction is carried out in person, at a rate determined and
> controlled by the instructor, who puts a tremendous amount of energy
> into working with each student. Hours a week of personal interaction,
> supplemented by hours of individual practice. And THEN there are the
> invaluable social hours--those times away from the dojo, when student
> and teacher are free to ramble about personal or non-sword-related
> topics, during which both gain a greater understanding and
> appreciation for who the other person is and what makes him/her tick.
> All of this goes into creating the bond of student and teacher in the
> JSA.
>
> Now then--contrast this with the Internet. A totally open door dojo
> policy, admitting folks of all ages, backgrounds, experiences and
> mental states with an entire spectrum of agendas in mind when they
> sign in here. Anyone choosing to be an "instructor" of such an unknown
> quantity is taking an awful chance--of being misunderstood, insulted,
> scolded, flamed--or being undeservedly praised, which in its own way
> is just as bad. Even given the premise that most people are inherently
> good and well-meaning, there is a far greater chance of conflict and
> misunderstanding when we are all so reliant upon the medium of the
> printed word.
>
> For one thing, some folks have the liberty of spending hours a day in
> discussion here, whereas others of us are limited to 20 minutes every
> other day or less. And, dare I say, it is usually the people who have
> the most valuable information to impart who actually have the least
> amount of free time to do so...For another, we cannot see the facial
> expressions, hear the intonations or know the entire background or
> mental maturity level of the persons with whom we are discussing
> sometimes controversial issues. These are details that would not be
> such factors in a face-to-face discussion.
>
> So is it any wonder that instructors generally prefer to spend their
> free time instructing conscientious students in person rather than the
> anonymous mass in the Internet?
>
> For those of you out there who do not have the fortune of being able
> to interact face-to-face with JSA instructors regularly, my heart goes
> out to you. It is HUNDREDS of times more satisfying to be present
> during the late night hour "Sensei discussions" that occur at the
> seminar and other training gettogethers than any Internet discussion I
> have EVER seen. Do I get satisfaction from having helped someone on
> the Internet? Certainly--but my heart does not burst with pride the
> way it does when one of the members of my study group gets
> complimented by a Sensei at a seminar.
>
> So, I am going to take a valuable lesson from the many instructors who
> have earned my respect over the years. I will continue to be here, and
> to moderate, but I will refrain from posting as if I were talking to
> members of my study group. Those of you who wish to may certainly PM
> or email me with concerns--I do reserve the right to answer--or not--
> as I see fit.
>
> And for those of you who continue to "instruct" here--good luck. You
> are going to need it.
>
>
> __________________
> In Sangha,
> Dr. Diane Mirro
> SFI Moderator"
>
>
> --- In classicalfencing@yahoogroups.com, <1@m...> wrote:
>
>> Dear List,
>>
>> Kim and I were discussing off list how a number of the original
>>
> members of
>
>> this list have either dropped off the list or resigned themselves to
>> inactive status.
>>
>> (...)Chris Umbs (...)
>> Why do y'all think some of these folks have dropped off of the list
>>
> and why
>
>> do y'all think we don't hear from the others as much as we did in the
>> earlier years of this list?
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> The CFML is sponsored in part by Purpleheart Armoury, now carrying
> rapier blunts and leather gorgets. http://www.woodenswords.com
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
>



----------------------------------------------------------------------
The CFML is sponsored in part by Purpleheart Armoury, now carrying rapier blunts and leather gorgets. http://www.woodenswords.com
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links

<*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/classicalfencing/

<*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
classicalfencing-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

<*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/