Should the USA do this?

[LUDICROUS]

Well, fresh off the Fenz website.....

The FeNZ Management Committee believes the FeNZ safety standard should reflect the EEC regulation standards "CEN", adjusted to our needs. The safety record of FeNZ does not warrant a full immediate introduction, so we will have a short lead in time to January 1st 2007 to fully comply, in three steps.

FeNZ recommends fencer's uniforms (jacket, trousers/breaches and plastron), mask and equipment meet the following standards, which are to be applied in FeNZ competitions:

STEP 1:
The safety standards to be in force from January 1, 2005 are:

CE 350 Newton resistance standard (CEN) 350N jacket, plastrons, trousers and mask (bib 350N). Clothing and equipment marked with CE or CEN 1, or CE 350N is known to meet this standard. For 2005 clothing that has the supplier’s approval may also be acceptable.

In FeNZ competitions FIE stamped blades will be required from the last 16 of the direct elimination as per FIE requirements.

Note:
+ All masks must be fitted with safety back straps.
+ For age category events below Cadet (Under 17) and also when both fencers are using none electric weapons (unwired or dummy electric blade excluded), size 3 or less blades, the FIE blade requirement will not apply.
+ Where a fencer has access to the higher standard clothing and equipment it should always be used in preference irrespective of any minimum lower standard requirement.


STEP 2:
The following safety standard to be effective from March 31st 2006:

In all FeNZ competitions FIE stamped blades will be required as per FIE requirements.

For NZ Junior and Senior Championships:
CE 800 Newton resistance standard (CEN) 800N jacket, plastrons, trousers and mask. Clothing and equipment with CE 800N or CEN 2 meet this standard.

For NZ Under 15, Under 17, and Schools Championships:
CE 350 Newton resistance standard (CEN) 350N jacket, plastrons, trousers and mask (bib 350N). Clothing and equipment marked with CE or CEN 1, or CE 350N meet this standard.

Note:
+ All masks must be fitted with safety back straps.
+ For competitions, excluding all NZ Championships, and NZ Cup events, FIE blade requirement will not apply where both fencers are using none electric weapons (unwired or dummy electric blade excluded), size 3 or less blades, also the minimum clothing equipment standard will be replaced by CE 1, 350 Newton.
+ Where a fencer has access to the higher standard clothing and equipment it should always be used in preference irrespective of any minimum lower standard requirement.


STEP 3:
The following safety standard to be effective from January 1st 2007:

In all FeNZ competitions FIE stamped blades will be required as per FIE requrements.

For all FeNZ Championships:
CE 800 Newton resistance standard (CEN) 800N jacket, plastrons, trousers and mask.
Clothing and equipment with CE 800N or CEN 2 meet this standard.

Note:
+ All masks must be fitted with safety back straps.
+ For competitions, excluding all NZ Championships, and NZ Cup events, FIE blade requirement will not apply where both fencers are using none electric weapons (unwired or dummy electric blade excluded), size 3 or less blades, also the CEN 2 (FIE 800N) clothing requirement does not apply and the minimum clothing equipment standard will be replaced by CE 1, 350 Newton.
+ Where a fencer has access to the higher standard clothing and equipment it should always be used in preference irrespective of any minimum lower standard requirement.

There are less than 400 affiliated fencers (more like less than 300, but I'm being VERY optimistic here) in this country. The cost is why they quit/don't start fencing.... Ugh. Now it's getting even more expensive..

[Zelda]

Hey least you dont need FIE gear to compete nationally.

[LUDICROUS]

Originally Posted by Zelda

Hey least you dont need FIE gear to compete nationally.

You need FIE blades, and from March 31st you need 800N clothes at championships.

[Zelda]

And championships are maybe 1 comp a year???

To do ANYTHING outside state level in Australia you need FULL FIE gear, and have done for years....(and people wonder why its the same faces at comps.....)

[LUDICROUS]

In total there's about 9, looking at the calendar. So one would probably only go to maybe 4/5, depending on age, but still. (They are distributed around the regions).

I could go to 5 "Championships" in 1 year.

Still, I understand where you are coming from. However you still have to buy the gear for that/those competition/competitions.

[Aestro]

Why would you only require FIE blades for the final 16? Do better matches tend to become more violent, and if so do the Olympics eventually turn into nude rapier duels?

[yeoldearmourer]

The back strap on mask I agree with. but the FIE blade is to much. I have blades that are 19 years old and are still fine but the first time I used a fie blade i broke it on my competrtion.and put it though his FIE Jacket luckly it went around the outside of the jacket and not him. what the problem is the stiffer blades saftey uniform the fencer are a lot more aggresive then then they use to be no finnes. Just speed
The fie blade when break in my opioin is my dangerous then the old fashion blades,

[KD5MDK]

A couple comments:

1) Do you not have sabre competitions? (I didn't do but one bout of sabre in my entire semester at OU Swords, I'll admit.) Because there are very few FIE stamped sabre blades, to my knowledge. (When is says "FIE stamped", do forged France-Lame blades count? Technicly they are stamped...)

2) As I read it, masks are required to meet an 800N standard, not the 1600N FIE standard. That's probably an oversight, but it is interesting.

3)

The safety standards to be in force from January 1, 2005 are:

Is this retroactive?

4)

Where a fencer has access to the higher standard clothing and equipment it should always be used in preference irrespective of any minimum lower standard requirement.

What does have access to mean? They can get on the Leon Paul website? What if somebody releases a 2000N mask. Does that become suggested? Do they mean "it's in the room and not being worn by someone else?" Or is this to discourage someone from buying 800N kit and then not wearing it because it doesn't fit as well/is less comfortable or something than their old gear?

[LUDICROUS]

Originally Posted by KD5MDK

A couple comments:

1) Do you not have sabre competitions? (I didn't do but one bout of sabre in my entire semester at OU Swords, I'll admit.) Because there are very few FIE stamped sabre blades, to my knowledge. (When is says "FIE stamped", do forged France-Lame blades count? Technicly they are stamped...)

2) As I read it, masks are required to meet an 800N standard, not the 1600N FIE standard. That's probably an oversight, but it is interesting.

3)
Is this retroactive?

4)

What does have access to mean? They can get on the Leon Paul website? What if somebody releases a 2000N mask. Does that become suggested? Do they mean "it's in the room and not being worn by someone else?" Or is this to discourage someone from buying 800N kit and then not wearing it because it doesn't fit as well/is less comfortable or something than their old gear?

1) Of course, I assume it's just talking about FIE foil/epee blades.

2) Oversight indeed I think.

3) Yeah, I thought so - ahh well, way to spring it on people huh.

4) It means if I can use my "new" 800N gear they say I should "always" use it over my "old" 350N gear. To the last part of your post - yes, in a way I guess.

[Kiwifencer]

There are less than 400 affiliated fencers (more like less than 300, but I'm being VERY optimistic here) in this country. The cost is why they quit/don't start fencing.... Ugh. Now it's getting even more expensive..[/quote]


1. - Why not institute a standard. NZ is now beginning to host Oceanic zone comps. Australia have had FIE requirements for a number of years. Why the USA haven't done anything yet surprises me and if their insurers knew of the situation they would probably be jumping up and down insisting on standards and hiking the premium.. if there was a major incident then the insurer would probably look to avoid the policy - arguably a major omission in the disclosure requirements - good faith and all. A bit like saying you drive a Toyota but forget to mention it has a 5L V8 modification...

2. The UK have/had a similar phased in system for requirements and also a minimum 'club/local standard vs national standard.

3. The cost of a CE 350 is about the same as a non fie (roughly) - but hey - it is your safety - save a few bucks - healthcare here is 'free' - you will probably have to wait in line at A&E unless you are lucky(?) enough to have something major hit...and then it won't matter really....and don't forget the ACC surcharge.....

The main point is that if people are buying gear, they should be buying to a standard that they will require...
People were quitting fencing way before this, and the cost of gear has nothing to do with it. It is the infrastructure (or lack of), insufficient coaching and opportunities to fence.

The policy does not seem to have been checked too well, but I understand it had been around and agreed on a fair time ago, and subject to discussion and input from the regions.

And Ludicrous I would suggest you shop around rather than relying on your local Allstar agent who charges a fairly hefty markup for pretty much doing nothing. Try Uhlmann, Leon Paul (which contact you have already) and various other manufacturers. (or Mainland Fencing based in Chch)

KD5MDK - when were you attending OU?

[Mauler]

At this year's US Summer Nationals, we would hear periodic announcements throughout the day informing the coaches and fencers that anyone taking a lesson in the venue must be in full uniform. When I gave lessons here and there, I did it outside the venue.

Sometimes when certain coach/fencer pairs can't seem to hear the announcement or choose to ignore it, referees took it upon ourselves as functionaries of the event to approach them and make them aware of the "insurance requirements." While I appreciated this move as a matter of policy in USFA's part and I gladly volunteered for this "unofficial" part of my duties without being asked to, I did find myself humorously questioning myself the wisdom behind enforcing this to the professionals of the sport who know very well the parameters of their lessons and the risks (presence or lack thereof depending on the nature of the lessons). Nevetheless, I gladly welcomed this "movement" since it's a good habit to build upon as an Association, and these things take time.

In the mean time (this is the part has has always troubled me) referees in the US have to stand there and let fencers walk up to the strip and use equipments that are flat-out unsafe and/or inadequate simply because the USFA rules allow it. It's an interesting feeling when I am refereeing, and somewhere in back of my mind I am HOPING there's no accident on MY strip... even though these two fencers running back and forth and charging at each other in front of me, under my responsibility, seem to be asking for it given their choice in equipment.

I'd hate to be remembered as the referee who was there when the next so-and-so got his/her eye/neck/lung/whatnot punctured....

[CvilleFencer]

To add a bit of perspective, I just recently had some of the jackets from my club tested on the FIE scale. I figured that most of the gear we use would be close to 350 already. Guess what? Even the 350+ newton (at least that is how it is marketed) Triplette gear wasn't! Some of the results are as follows:

Glue Guantlet Stretch Nylon 150 (lightly used)
Absolute Stretch Nylon 289 (lightly used)
Triplette Stretch Nylon (the one they sell as 350+!) 270 (lightly used)

I think that the 350N requirement would be a bit more work as the USFA would have to do more than just take the makers word for it, but I think it is something worth doing. A lot of fencers pay close to 350 prices but complain about an extre 20-40 dollars. Pack you lunch for a week and buy some kit that will not get you hurt in an accident. For the same reason that seatbelts and airbags are no longer options (there is always someone out there that would not pay the extra $10 for his seatbelt) I don't think the USFA should really give the option of rather or not to be safe to fencers. I think I am somewhat in the minority here, but I still think it would be the smart/safe/right thing to do, especially in the rather litiguous atmosphere that the USFA operates in. The first time a suit comes along any money that is paid for defending a frivolous suit would most likely be less than implementing a USFA 350N standard.

[LUDICROUS]

And Ludicrous I would suggest you shop around rather than relying on your local Allstar agent who charges a fairly hefty markup for pretty much doing nothing. Try Uhlmann, Leon Paul (which contact you have already) and various other manufacturers. (or Mainland Fencing based in Chch)

Yeah, I don't buy much from Allstar now. Just ordered some LP stuff, and for blades I'm going to go through Mainland Fencing.

[oiuyt]

[quote=CvilleFencer]To add a bit of perspective, I just recently had some of the jackets from my club tested on the FIE scale.[quote]

May I ask what your process was for doing this? Who did the testing?

-B :)

[CvilleFencer]

May I ask what your process was for doing this? Who did the testing?
-B

I actually had some of our club kit tested by a manufacturer/vendor that I should not name as it was sort of a favor, and maybe should not have mentioned it at all now that I think of it, but it was done to the FIE standards on the same system they use to certify their own kit and blades. Pretty interesting stuff. I am not sure if it proves to me that 350n is overkill since we have never had an incident at the club with all the blade breaks and hard hits that new fencers can have or if it proves that I have been overestimating the level of protection offered by our club gear and it is time to move up to a better standard. However I think I will heir on the side of caution with this one.

[Inquartata]

Originally Posted by CvilleFencer

I think I will heir on the side of caution

That's what contraceptives are for.

[D+F+P=Hadouken!]

I believe that the only thing it proves is that its worth the extra money to go FIE.

[kalivor]

Originally Posted by KD5MDK

4)

What does have access to mean? They can get on the Leon Paul website? What if somebody releases a 2000N mask. Does that become suggested? Do they mean "it's in the room and not being worn by someone else?" Or is this to discourage someone from buying 800N kit and then not wearing it because it doesn't fit as well/is less comfortable or something than their old gear?

It sounds to me like they're just covering their butt by suggesting that people should use the best protection available, and that the minimum standards are just that: minimal.