Acknowledging Touches

[Pointillist]

Scenario: - During a competition bout, you are touched by your opponent. The director awards the touch for your opponent (against you). How do you acknowledge this touch to your adversary? (If at all) I have seen everything from a good natured chuckle to a full blown "court bow" including the doffing of an imaginary, ostrich plumed Musketeer hat!
I will usually offer a brief salute by bringing my guard to my face with the tip pointed to the cieling.
What do you do?

[Shadow Fencer]

I usually don't acknowledge touches against me. I'm too busy going back to the en garde line thinking about how I'm going to land a touch against my opponent!

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I live to fence and fence to live!!

[Purple Fencer]

I end up pointign at my opponent and saying "Nice touch." It's very clear that I'm acknowledging that I got nailed.

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Sam Signorelli -- Boldly going forward...'cause I can't find reverse!

[attila]

If I have respect for my opponent I will argue witht the ref- If not, tough call! It happens so much, especially in foil and sabre, that down the line it will also go againt you just as much.

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"Kill the men, save the women, and by the gods, do not spill the wine"

[sabreur]

If it is a clear touch against me, I will acknowledge it to the director (referee--sorry, I'm a little old-fashioned about that).

If it is a particularly deft, intelligent and witty touch, I might sketch a quick salute at my opponent. If I'm really relaxed and fencing well, I laugh when my opponent catches me out.

Attila:

I think you are talking about a different case, and one that is harder to deal with--when you and your opponent both know that he has won the touch, but the director gives it to you.

In this case, unless it is really blatant, I take the somewhat cynical approach that things look different to the director than they do to the fencers on the strip--I might have thought that I was parried, or a taking of the blade was correct, when it appeared to the director that there was a mal parre, or that the taking of the blade was on the forte. In these cases, I let the director make the decision--that's why we have directors. For better or worse, you can't always tell what happened in a point--it is the director's job to untangle the action.

Of course, when I direct, I have no qualms about throwing out an untidy point, if I'm not sure what happened. I think too many directors think they have to be all-knowing and all-seeing. IMNSHO, it is far better to simply say that the action wasn't clear, and throw the point out--among other things, it encourages cleaner, more precise fencing.

Regards, Mark Ray

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Why sabre? Because you don't take heads with the point.

[Gav]

Sabreur you said:-


"Of course, when I direct, I have no qualms about throwing out an untidy point, if I'm not sure what happened. I think too many directors think they have to be all-knowing and all-seeing. IMNSHO, it is far better to simply say that the action wasn't clear, and throw the point out--among other things, it encourages cleaner, more precise fencing."

You are totally correct! The number of times I've presided and had the "... but that's not how they do it [insert competition, country, club]." Bad presiding is a major problem.

[Boo Boo]

If I agree with the hit against me, then I will nod slightly at the president (in general).

If I disagree with a hit against me then my reaction depends where I am and tends to range from total exasperated gasps of disbelief and saying "didn't I/he..." and miming the action (on a club night) to a quizical look and a slightly tilted head at a competition (some directors - especially at foreigns - need little qualification to card you)...

Boo Boo

[Shadow Fencer]

OK...gotta admit.....(didn't realize I did this until I was conscious of it this week!) When the Director explains the action and is looking at ME...I know it was against ME and after he/she is finished with the explanation, I nod my head in acknowledgement, then go back to the en garde line! (I meant Referee too, but I must be OLD fashioned too!)

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I live to fence and fence to live!!

[oiuyt]

Shadow- While that's (referee looking at/talking to the fencer who is about to be awarded against) very common, the refereeing clinics specifically tell referees to AVOID doing it. It tends to led to more confrontations and arguments and whatnot than addressing oneself to the machine. IMHO it's very natural to explain to someone why you're not awarding them the touch (you assume naturally that the other person is happy with the touch so doesn't need justification). It's also a REALLY hard habit to break. That said, the FOC is right, there ARE a lot fewer complaints from fencers when you don't directly address your ROW calls to one of them.

-B

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"Oh but you can't expect to wield supreme executive power just because some watery tart threw a sword at you!"

[Chris]

Originally posted by Pointillist:
Scenario: - During a competition bout, you are touched by your opponent. The director awards the touch for your opponent (against you). How do you acknowledge this touch to your adversary? (If at all) I have seen everything from a good natured chuckle to a full blown "court bow" including the doffing of an imaginary, ostrich plumed Musketeer hat!
I will usually offer a brief salute by bringing my guard to my face with the tip pointed to the cieling.
What do you do?

Several people seemed to have missed the point here: it is GIVEN that the point was given CORRECTLY! (My, what a confrontational bunch we are; so many people assuming the question was about an incorrect call) - the question was, how to acknowledge the touch to the opponent (I infer that it is because it was a nice, or well-developed action, or skillfully delivered).

People are people, so you get a lot of different solutions to this non-problem; Since, technically, according to the rules, you aren't supposed to speak to your opponent, a lot of people resort to a salute of some sort, which is pretty hard to interpret as objectionable, or inflammatory: I recommend a cursory nod, with a single stroke presentation of the bell - squeezed in just as you take first position, and then settle to en garde. Anything much more elaborate is A. pretentious, and B. potentially viewed as delaying the bout.

A somewhat common practice I have seen in some sabre circles is to make a little signal with the rear hand/index finger, as if you were 'chalking one up' with your finger.
THis generally seems to be well received, i.e., I have never seen anyone object to it, as though it were something bad.

Some people actually touch their opponent afterwards (which is something I would NOT recommend, unless you are practically family with the person, and even THEN, probably not at a tournament - just the club); A common one is a patting on the back, although this can get out of hand: There's a guy in our division who (when he's impressed by the action) occaisionally pats people several on the back ; Well, it's actually more like a big smack, over and over again; I am pretty big guy, so it doesn't hurt, but he's pretty strong, and it's really kind of annoying.

Another common, but questionable practice it to give a pat on the buttocks, either with the hand, or sometimes the blade; obviously, you probably wouldn't do this with anyone you were pretty good, friendly terms with; but you really shouldn't expect the referee to know that, and to be honest (if I were refereeing, and saw this), even if I didn't feel any tension in the bout, I wouldn't be too comfortable seeing that - you don't always know when someone's getting a little 'hot under the collar'.

Fencing = Fun!

Chris

[This message has been edited by Chris (edited 06-29-2001).]

[JamieUK]

It's usually pretty civilised over here, people tend to salute or nod if they receive a good hit, or say "On me" or point to where they were hit if they think a good hit is in any doubt. I try to do this, as I think that spirit is an important part of the sport, but if I'm fencing one of those argumentative, spoilt primadonnas (you know the type) I do tend to be cynical and keep quiet. I reckon if they've had that much practice arguing their case (good or bad) with the president, they don't need my help!

[Peach]

I hate when people pat you on the buttocks with their weapons as an approbation - in mixed sabre events they do that to me and it doesn't feel like a compliment--it feels exactly like someone getting a little fresh. One of the few things I don't like about mixed events.

People have raised different issues--how you acknowledge the touch when it's awarded correctly, how (and whether) you do it when it's awarded incorrectly--and I also want to add a third--when the referee is struggling to reconstruct the phrase but it obviously went against me, I'll catch his or her eye and raise the index finger of my back hand to indicate I am acknowledging. The referee always says "Thank you," with obvious gratitude. I rarely acknowledge a touch during a refereed bout otherwise, because it's pre-empting the referee's function, unless it was a really nice touch.

That said, if a touch is awarded incorrectly against my opponent, I shrug apologetically at my opponent and mention it afterwards. I've been told off by referees for trying to acknowledge in contradiction of the referee's opinion.

[Sciurus Rex]

It depends largely on his attitude and the quality of the touch. I'm more likely to compliment an opponent if he hasn't been a jerk.

[veeco]

I remember my coach in France at the MS Y12 nationals, in the team matches.

Some kid gets on the strip, tears his opponent 5-0, and then walks casually to my coach to hear some compliment. My coach looks at him sternly and starts telling him what he did wrong in the bout.

One of the parents was next to me and said: 'He won, didn't he?'. I look at him, laugh, and say, 'Yep, no problem!'.

Then, another kid jump on the strip for the next relay. He gets hit, and before the director does anything, he acknowledges the touch. My coach tears his hair off his scalp, and starts yelling: 'Don't acknowledge touches!'.

The point is the kid was being nice, but in competition, I never acknowledge touches. That's part of the game. When I fence someone, if I hit the floor and I know I hit the floor, I don't say I hit the floor. I just look at the referee and wait for him to make his call.
There's no point in being nice, it's a competition and you can't expect the other guy to do the same thing anyway, so why give them an advantage?

When I fence in practice, I will obviously acknowledge all touches which are dubious.

[epeemike81]

Veeco,

It is one thing not to acknowledge a touch in a right of way weapon, it is quite another to not acknowledge a floor touch.

If you KNOW you hit the floor, do you really WANT credit for the touch? I know I don't. Floor touches should always be acknowledged. It is the right thing to do, and also sends the message to the director that when you don't acknowledge, it means that you believe you hit your opponent.

-m

[veeco]

Originally posted by epeemike81:
It is one thing not to acknowledge a touch in a right of way weapon, it is quite another to not acknowledge a floor touch.

If you KNOW you hit the floor, do you really WANT credit for the touch? I know I don't. Floor touches should always be acknowledged. It is the right thing to do, and also sends the message to the director that when you don't acknowledge, it means that you believe you hit your opponent.

How is not acknowledging touches in a ROW weapon not different from letting the referee make their interpretation as to where the touch landed?
If I am in a ROW weapon and I get a beat-attack against myself, should I say that it was beat-attack against me or wait for the referee to say what he saw? For what I know he could have seen my parry-riposte.

Same thing here. It's not my fault if the referee can't see whether I hit the floor or the foot. Get grounded strips that work or get a pair of glasses.

I don't think that's being unfair. I won't complain and ask for the touch, I'll just wait for the referee to say what he saw.

[Gary]

I am not sure if I am not understanding the posts in this thread, but it troubles me to read some of the "win no matter how" posts. To me fencing above all other sports was showing respect for your opponent. Acknowledging touchs is showing respect for your opponent as well as yourself.

There isnt a medal or trophy that is so important to use those kind of tactics.

I am not coming down on anyone, it is just an attitude that is so pervasive and not at all what fencing is about.

[Stryder]

Veeco-
I wonder if you really keep silent when you get screwed by the ref'... but that isn't the point.

In practice, acknowledging touches gets the talking out of the way and gets you back to training. If I can beat you 15-2 with a good ref' I get 17 chances to practice against you. If I have to beat you 15-13 because I have a bad ref', thameans I got 28 chances to practice. I come out the winner in two ways because I have a ref' that makes me do it more than right, but perfect and with only one light.

Acknowledging in practice, however forms a habit of throwing your finger in the air whenecver your plan fails. Sometimes, your opponent's plan fails too and your remise actually DID have right of way. Your instant acknowledgment will sway the ref' every time, costing you a touch that should have been yours.

My advice is that beginners make sure they know what the ref' saw, before they decide if they think the touch was theirs or not. The ref' over rules your acknowledgment for a reason. He is in a better position to see the action than you are.

Once you understand right of way, and can make those calls correctly if you choose, acknowledging touches is something people must decide for themselves. At times the ref' has blown calls in my favor and I have let him. At other times (better times) I have corrected his mistake and the touch was given correctly. To me it is just a question of character, at some point we all decide how much of our own ideals we will pass by in order to win. "Is it more important for me to win, or for me to be an honest man?" Sometimes when I am losing, and frustrated, and angry, I choose to win.
When I am at my best, I choose to be honest.
When I am at my very best, I choose to be honest and I win, too.


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www.geocities.com/strydermike

[Iwant2bafencer]

I don't fence yet, although I guess if it were really good I would probably do one of those old fashioned bows. You know when they hold both of their arms out to thier sides and do a deep bow. Yeah that would be fun! Or I really like the brief salute by bringing the gaurd to your face and tip up! That pointillist does! Those look -really- cool! Sorry I'm a really old fashioned girl! lol It's not my fault I love shakespear and his time!
Wannab

[This message has been edited by Iwant2bafencer (edited 07-10-2001).]

[epeemike81]

Veeco,

You missed my point. It is one thing to not acknowledge that it was attack parry riposte, as opposed to your beat attack. It is another to not acknowledge that you didn't even HIT your opponent. Again, if you score on yourself, the floor, chairs, spectators (I've seen it happen) then you should acknowledge. If you land on your opponent, but are pretty sure it was his right of way, then, by all means, let the director call it.

-m