Acknowledging Touches

[d8m2k]

Originally posted by epeemike81:
I have yet to meet anyone in competition who doesn't acknowledge. That is true of everybody I know from the rankest beginner to A's, to international fencers.

You should meet more fencers...
Although top level foil fencers think everything is theirs...

I could tell you so many stories though...

But in addition, as to knowing where you hit, it isn't always possible. So many times people think they hit, only the light doesn't go off. Or they hit floor, the light doesn't go off until after they hit the opponent.

The point is that the ref may have seen something the fencer didn't.

[epeemike81]

d8m2k,

I meet plenty of fencers as I go to tournaments throughout New England, Connecticut, and Hudson Berkshire divisions, as well as national events. Thus, I get experience in the largest division (New England) and against fencers from the most elite divisions (Metro and Long Island) who fence in CT div. events.

-m

[epeemike81]

Originally posted by d8m2k:

But in addition, as to knowing where you hit, it isn't always possible. So many times people think they hit, only the light doesn't go off. Or they hit floor, the light doesn't go off until after they hit the opponent.

The point is that the ref may have seen something the fencer didn't.

If that is the case, then the director will correct the fencer... that is to say, the director's response to the acknowledgement will be "I know you hit the floor, but the light did not come on until well after."

I have seen fencers acknowledge touches (at a World Cup of all places) only to have the director tell them that they did in fact deserve the touch. This was in a right of way dispute.

If World class fencers at a world class event with world class directors acknowledge right of way touches, don't you think you should at least acknowledge floor touches at local yokel events?
-m

[This message has been edited by epeemike81 (edited 07-11-2001).]

[EpeePete]

I will usually half-way raise my non-fencing hand to acknowledge a touch.

Pete

[d8m2k]

Originally posted by epeemike81:
If World class fencers at a world class event with world class directors acknowledge right of way touches, don't you think you should at least acknowledge floor touches at local yokel events?

1) I have seen far more world class fencers not acknowledge touches, than those who do.

2) I don't fence 'local yokel events'. Usually only NAC's and WC's.

3) I never said whether, personally, I acknowledge or don't. It's a choice that people make, it isn't unscrupulous or, wrong. And differentiating floor touches from ROW is just trying to make yourself feel better about your sportsmanship.

[epeemike81]

Originally posted by d8m2k:
3) I never said whether, personally, I acknowledge or don't. It's a choice that people make, it isn't unscrupulous or, wrong. And differentiating floor touches from ROW is just trying to make yourself feel better about your sportsmanship.

Since I DO acknowledge even ROW, differentiating is NOT trying to make myself feel better about my sportsmanship.

There is a real difference between ROW and floor touches. I am tired of trying to explain the difference, so lets just agree to disagree. End of Discussion (at least on my part).

-m

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DUCK AND COVER!!!!!!

[its_me_mango]

that's why i encourage people to continue to fence and stop staring at the light like a deer caught in headlights, in other words, keep moving, keep moving, the director did not call halt.

[This message has been edited by its_me_mango (edited 07-11-2001).]

[d8m2k]

Originally posted by epeemike81:
Since I DO acknowledge even ROW, differentiating is NOT trying to make myself feel better about my sportsmanship.

OK, sorry I missed that part where you acknowledge all ROW touches that you don't think were yours. Although I have to tell you, you are in the minority. Most foil fencers believe the touch is theirs, always.

There is a real difference between ROW and floor touches. I am tired of trying to explain the difference, so lets just agree to disagree. End of Discussion (at least on my part).
-m[/QUOTE]

To me there is no real difference.

I am big fan of saying agree to disagree.


[This message has been edited by d8m2k (edited 07-11-2001).]

[oiuyt]

The following occured a couple of days ago in the Div IA MS event in a DE bout on the strip where my DEs were being fenced (not my bout).

Fencer A was leading (something like 12-7). Fencer B had been getting increasingly frustrated with the ref's ROW interpretations (he WAS very consistent, so you could adjust to him, but hand preps would almost never get called so long as the feet kept you moving forward). Ref says fence, both fencers come forward, fencer A sweeps up into a quinte, fencer B evades and hits chest as fencer A counters to B's mask. Fencer A immediately says "touche". Ref calls simul. Fencer B complains. Ref says both fencers started on the fence command. Fencer B points out that fencer A acknowledged. Fencer A denies acknowledging, ref never heard fencer A say anything. Fencer B gets VERY frustrated and gets pounded for the final 3 points, clearly thinking about the ref rather than the action.

There was NO question that the call was blown by the ref. This wasn't a close action that was open to interpretation, it was a blatent missed call. There's also no question that Fencer A acknowledged the touch and then denied doing so.

-B

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"Oh but you can't expect to wield supreme executive power just because some watery tart threw a sword at you!"

[d8m2k]

Originally posted by oiuyt:

There was NO question that the call was blown by the ref. This wasn't a close action that was open to interpretation, it was a blatent missed call. There's also no question that Fencer A acknowledged the touch and then denied doing so.

Had that happen to me. A long time ago.
Also, if a fencer acknowledges a touch some refs think it is collusion.

The first bout I ever presided over, top 4. Fencer B is down 13-14. They come together A makes a prime riposte while turning. I allow the touch. A says 'I turned, disallow the touch.' Me, being new say sure what do I care. B scores the next 2 touches and goes on to win the gold.

B's opponent in the final later comes up and tells me that A threw the bout. A probably did, and I don't blame refs who don't accept acknowledgments.

[Stryder]

oiuyt-

I'ver had that happen to me before. I such cases some times the ref saw what the fencers didn't. Of course, that probably wasn't the case, based on your description.
Maybe the fencer who got away with the touch was trying not to show the ref what a fool he was by denying his acknowledgment.
I've done that too. If I acknowledge too quickly (and the action is close to being simo') then I will let the ref' overrule me and thank him for his wisdom.
It does no good to shake the ref's confidance by showing him that even when he gives you the point, he is wrong.

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www.geocities.com/strydermike

[HilandDoug]

Anyone here who was at Nationals have Jim Vesper for a sabre referee? If so, what was your opinion?

Thank you in advance.

[Pointillist]

My My My how these threads do go awry some times. What started out as a simple inquiry regarding how you acknowledge a well deserved touch from your opponent gets turned into a discussion of ethics, ROW, floor touches, poor directing and who fences at the most elite venues... Thanks to all who tried to stay on topic as I found YOUR responses most illuminating.