Tests Results with Sanzo, Cassara, Bissdorf in Paris

[azfencer]

This sounds like it could greatly increase annual costs, not just a one time fee for a new mask. If the lame material on the bib covers the "edge" of the bib on any side it will rub against the normal lame. That means both are likely to wear each other down and fail the conductivity tests and lames will have to be replaced much more often than now. Doesn't sound fun.

Also if the biggest thing the FIE has to worry about is the U10/U12 kids with mask bib covering their target I think this is a sad world. I've always considered their smaller target as an advantage which is offset by their shorter arm reach and never thought of it as that big of a deal.

[CvilleFencer]

Originally Posted by kalivor

In foil, it doesn't matter if a target is a bit further away -- you're protected by RoW. If the changes to the debounce timing don't eliminate those hits on the chest that fail to register, then the neck will become THE reliable target in the high lines, and receive a lot more hits than it does in epee. That, to me, is the danger. The only reason for an epeeist to PURPOSELY hit the neck is an attempt to hurt the other person. If they're just trying to score, they're probably aiming elsewhere. With the current situation in foil, the neck might prove to be the most reliable target.

This is a very good point and not something I had thought about at first. It does make me somewhat rethink my position on this. I hope someone mentions it to the FIE as well as I think that you are very right in that with this rule in effect along with the current or close to current timings, the neck along with the lower stomach/groin (against those wearing chest plates) are going to be the two most reliable shots and the two most dangerous areas to hit, especially with a broken blade...

[Barry Paul]

Before accepting the version of events as reported it would be wise to get an official comunication from the F.I.E. about any changes.

I really do not think asking some top fencers who are against the rule changes to demonstrate or trial proposed changes is likely to have been very scientific.

My view of the proposed alterations is that there has been no proper tests of these new timings, all the possible 13 ms change will do is reduce the number of non hits and increase the number of flick hits which arrive. ( A dogs dinner of an improvement)

I beleive it is possible to change the definition of what a valid hit is as seen by the apparatus, but keeping the 15 ms time,with the result that flick hits are prevented and greatly reducing the non hits on hard surfaces or non hits due to shorting.

As to extending the target, for fencers old enough to remember when you could get off target and then on target you will recall that this happend 30% of hits? If you get rid of the off target light these will be seen as direct valid hits, the problem will in part go away and it might end up that no more changes are needed.

As for small fencers with large bibs, what are we going to do about tall fencers with long arms? It is not fair!!!! Lets make them use a shorter weapon!!!!!

[CvilleFencer]

Originally Posted by RebelFencer

What the hell? I swear, if he messes with Epee' I don't know what I'm going to do. Why get rid of double touches? What purpose will that serve at all? All it would leave us with is the stereotypical paint-drying epee' bout.

I am not overly worried about this (of course when I first heard about it I did not think the new foil timings would go through) in that it goes against the spirit and history of epee (first blood/code duello) and it will make bouts take forever and be very low scoring (think womens epee is boring now, wait until this happens!). Add to that the fact that epee seems to be considered the "best" weapon from his point of veiw so far and I think there is little chance that it will come to pass. Unless of course all the foilists and saberists on various panels want a bit of petty payback for all the gloating we did after dodging the bullet in his last round of "how can I destroy fencing this year", which is apparently the new favorite game of the FIE...

[kalivor]

Originally Posted by Alan

What i would like to understand is

what is the interest of making the bib valid ???

One of the arguments against removing the off-target light in foil is that it's too easy to cover the target with the weapon arm or bib in a manner that isn't really "covering target." Currently, these lead to an off-target light, so the offending fencer doesn't really benefit from it, but if there was not such light, they could try to get the hit to arrive off-target and counter-attack -- a tactic that is undesirable.

All the attempts to extend foil target to the lead arm and bib are changes in preparation for the removal of the off-target light (which is on Roche's wishlist, from what I understand). It is Roche's attempt at taking another small step towards his vision of foil's future.

[RebelFencer]

Originally Posted by CvilleFencer

I am not overly worried about this (of course when I first heard about it I did not think the new foil timings would go through) in that it goes against the spirit and history of epee (first blood/code duello) and it will make bouts take forever and be very low scoring (think womens epee is boring now, wait until this happens!). Add to that the fact that epee seems to be considered the "best" weapon from his point of veiw so far and I think there is little chance that it will come to pass. Unless of course all the foilists and saberists on various panels want a bit of petty payback for all the gloating we did after dodging the bullet in his last round of "how can I destroy fencing this year", which is apparently the new favorite game of the FIE...

yeah, that's a good point. It's just one of those things where, it's not broken..so let's not fix it. I truly hope that common sense will prevail in this matter. Rep point for relieving my panic attack.

[esskreemr]

Originally Posted by CvilleFencer

Unless of course all the foilists and saberists on various panels want a bit of petty payback for all the gloating we did after dodging the bullet in his last round of "how can I destroy fencing this year", which is apparently the new favorite game of the FIE...

Nooo... we're all fencers here. None of that nya nya nya stuff.

I just read this on scherma.jp:

The executive committee of the FIE has just announced its plans to revitalize epee. "After speaking with many concerned manufacturers, we have come to the conclusion that electric epee equipment is too reliable and inexpensive." President Roche told the assembled reporters. "Therefore, we are going to require a conductive sleeve that will be grounded to the epee for all International level events. We feel this will encourage more hits to the body and will discourage the current wait and snipe mentality that is so common amongst epee fencers."

When asked if any more sweeping, untested changes would be required, Roche replied " Oh, I can guarantee that. I still have a few years left in my most recent presidency which, at least as far as the common fencer knows, was won by a majority vote by legitimate fencing federations. Fencing has been experiencing years of growth. We feel that it's important to maintain a certain elite attitude towards the sport of fencing, otherwise, any poor person would most likely be able to scrape up the funds to fence in a World Cup. I KNOW that nobody wants that to happen! We hope our plan will be complete with the upcoming requirement of 18 karat gold plating on all guards and wire mesh masks. We will also be changing the wording of our tournament format to include 'Death Matches' instead of 'direct elimination', we feel this will significantly improve fencing's popularity. I've been talking with President Rogge, though the next vote won't come until the 2012 and fencing has never been mentioned publicly as a 'endangered' sport, we need to continue these changes to ensure that fencing remains an Olympic sport. Next, I'll be cutting all women foil events to include a women's 'tag team' epee event and a women's 'capture the flag' epee event. This has nothing to do with my being a former epee fencer and subsequently despising both foil and sabre. We the executive committee just feel that these changes are necessary for the sport of fencing to continue. We have listened to what the fencers have been saying concerning the changes to their sport, but we, the executive committee, just simply know better than they do. Therefore, we will continue with our plans, even if it means the destruction of foil....errr.... I mean FENCING as we know it. Thank you everyone. Adieu!"

This is a parody. None of the information is true and in many cases has been blatantly made up.

[CvilleFencer]

You are not alone in the panic department. The first I heard of his intent to "modernize epee and make it more dynamic" was back a few issues ago in the FIE magazine! It was just a passing comment in an article where he was telling himself how great he was and what a success his new timings were for foil and saber but it still gave me a hell of a scare! The last I heard he had very very little support for this idiocy thankfully.

[CvilleFencer]

Originally Posted by esskreemr

Nooo... we're all fencers here. None of that nya nya nya stuff.

In a similar vein as the above "we are all fencers here and are above any of the Nya nya type stuff" article... After getting talked into fencing foil at the last tourney I now outrank you (at least in the datestamp) in your chosen weapon. Without parrying! I guess that means you will just have to come up to the Kickoff and make sure I can't get any higher (I was one bout away from getting a foil C and finishing in the top 3 and if that happened in a foil tourney I think the world would have ended... )Rep points for your very funny if meanspirited and blasphemous "article" by the way!

[penguin_2000]

I'm not buying a new equipment if they change the rules... At best, I'll tuck my bib under my lame, but thats it

I really wish my club fenced sabre....

[Alan]

Originally Posted by RebelFencer

To stop people (mostly youth fencers I'd imagine) from using the bib of the mask to cover target. While I think most of the changes have bastardized foil, I actually think that if it is implemented well...the bib rule could be a good thing. The old timings would be nice, but that isn't going to happen, so oh well. Thank God I made the switch.

Do you really think his majesty cares about young foilists ?

And at the same time pushes for using stupid, dangerous and expensive clear visor masks ?

Now think about a bad loser who will try to hurt by deliberatly
attacking hard on the bib.

With this and these clear visor masks foil is becoming really dangerous.

Stop this before a bad accident happens !!!

Please Mr Roch take some vacations and go fishing.
(Because we all know you love rod fishing.)

[RebelFencer]

Originally Posted by Alan

Please Mr Roch take some vacations and go fishing.
(Because we all know you love rod fishing.)

I think his disdain for flicks disproves this theory.

[Welted 24/7]

I think his disdain for flicks disproves this theory.

....I think that was kinda the joke, RF.

[Alan]

Originally Posted by Welted 24/7

....I think that was kinda the joke, RF.

Yes ...

Not speaking of the discrimination towards long-necked people
if the bib is valid.

[CvilleFencer]

I was talking about the bib becoming target with Danielle (my fiancée) last night and she asked me if I was going to start wearing my gorget again. Since I only fence foil about twice a year seems like, it is not much of a worry for me, but it occurs to me that gorget's may just be a good idea. I have a pretty solid and comfortable (articulted as opposed to rigid plate) design for a gorget that I have used doing stage and historic fencing. Right now it is leather and steel but it would take little effort to make it nylon, plastic and velcro. For those of you that are not familiar with them a gorget is a chestplate for the throat that is a very good idea (and often required) if you are fencing with blunted rapiers or schlager blades. It provides rigid protection for your windpipe and the better designs are still fairly comfortable to wear. For your kids, people with sensitive throats or high level fencers these may be worth checking into. I will get to work on putting my pattern into lightweight materials and post some picks for people to take a look at and copy for themselves (after all I don't think I can patent something based on 12th century armor...) if this rule change goes through.

Another thing that I thought of is that LP has been working for a while on a special super foam for mask bibs, gloves and eventually maybe even uniform applications. The name they are using for this spiffy stuff is D30 and if I recall correctly it works like normal foam, maybe a bit stiffer, until it has any pressure put against it. Once that happens it sort of temporarily hardens across a larger area than the impact protecting whatever is actually under the spot hit and spreading the impact across a broader surface area. It is super cool stuff, but with if this new rule comes into effect it could very well be a life saving innovation.

Considering that their bibs already reach around farther than Uhlmann/Allstar/PBT to cover more of the neck area and the disk fit system holds the mask very stable to help keep a flush fit with the jacket and bib I think the new D30 foam would really help keep people safe. I guess that would give LP the lightest, most comfortable, best built (that last part is IMHO) AND safest mask on the market if you went with the contour fit system. If the rule did go through and LP was public, I think I would buy stock. Of course if LP was public I would already own stock, but I think I would buy more!

[Alan]

Originally Posted by CvilleFencer

system. If the rule did go through and LP was public, I think I would buy stock. Of course if LP was public I would already own stock, but I think I would buy more!

I am wondering if the people who invent a *creative* rule every day
have not already invested in stocks of fencing equipment companies.

[kalivor]

Originally Posted by CvilleFencer

I was talking about the bib becoming target with Danielle (my fiancée) last night and she asked me if I was going to start wearing my gorget again. Since I only fence foil about twice a year seems like, it is not much of a worry for me, but it occurs to me that gorget's may just be a good idea. I have a pretty solid and comfortable (articulted as opposed to rigid plate) design for a gorget that I have used doing stage and historic fencing. Right now it is leather and steel but it would take little effort to make it nylon, plastic and velcro. For those of you that are not familiar with them a gorget is a chestplate for the throat that is a very good idea (and often required) if you are fencing with blunted rapiers or schlager blades. It provides rigid protection for your windpipe and the better designs are still fairly comfortable to wear. For your kids, people with sensitive throats or high level fencers these may be worth checking into. I will get to work on putting my pattern into lightweight materials and post some picks for people to take a look at and copy for themselves (after all I don't think I can patent something based on 12th century armor...) if this rule change goes through.

Another thing that I thought of is that LP has been working for a while on a special super foam for mask bibs, gloves and eventually maybe even uniform applications. The name they are using for this spiffy stuff is D30 and if I recall correctly it works like normal foam, maybe a bit stiffer, until it has any pressure put against it. Once that happens it sort of temporarily hardens across a larger area than the impact protecting whatever is actually under the spot hit and spreading the impact across a broader surface area. It is super cool stuff, but with if this new rule comes into effect it could very well be a life saving innovation.

Considering that their bibs already reach around farther than Uhlmann/Allstar/PBT to cover more of the neck area and the disk fit system holds the mask very stable to help keep a flush fit with the jacket and bib I think the new D30 foam would really help keep people safe. I guess that would give LP the lightest, most comfortable, best built (that last part is IMHO) AND safest mask on the market if you went with the contour fit system. If the rule did go through and LP was public, I think I would buy stock. Of course if LP was public I would already own stock, but I think I would buy more!

I'm considering just buying a hockey-style throat protector. But I'll wait, first for things to become official, then for things to start to be incorporated at a level I actually compete at ... which will likely mean the fall, come to think of it ...

[Feraud]

Originally Posted by CvilleFencer

I was talking about the bib becoming target with Danielle (my fiancée) last night and she asked me if I was going to start wearing my gorget again. Since I only fence foil about twice a year seems like, it is not much of a worry for me, but it occurs to me that gorget's may just be a good idea. I have a pretty solid and comfortable (articulted as opposed to rigid plate) design for a gorget that I have used doing stage and historic fencing. Right now it is leather and steel but it would take little effort to make it nylon, plastic and velcro. For those of you that are not familiar with them a gorget is a chestplate for the throat that is a very good idea (and often required) if you are fencing with blunted rapiers or schlager blades. It provides rigid protection for your windpipe and the better designs are still fairly comfortable to wear. For your kids, people with sensitive throats or high level fencers these may be worth checking into. I will get to work on putting my pattern into lightweight materials and post some picks for people to take a look at and copy for themselves (after all I don't think I can patent something based on 12th century armor...) if this rule change goes through.

Another thing that I thought of is that LP has been working for a while on a special super foam for mask bibs, gloves and eventually maybe even uniform applications. The name they are using for this spiffy stuff is D30 and if I recall correctly it works like normal foam, maybe a bit stiffer, until it has any pressure put against it. Once that happens it sort of temporarily hardens across a larger area than the impact protecting whatever is actually under the spot hit and spreading the impact across a broader surface area. It is super cool stuff, but with if this new rule comes into effect it could very well be a life saving innovation.

Considering that their bibs already reach around farther than Uhlmann/Allstar/PBT to cover more of the neck area and the disk fit system holds the mask very stable to help keep a flush fit with the jacket and bib I think the new D30 foam would really help keep people safe. I guess that would give LP the lightest, most comfortable, best built (that last part is IMHO) AND safest mask on the market if you went with the contour fit system. If the rule did go through and LP was public, I think I would buy stock. Of course if LP was public I would already own stock, but I think I would buy more!

Whenever I see pictures of historical fencers wearing gorgets for fencing it bothers me.
A gorget is a piece of armor meant to stop downward blow to your collarbone or a slashing strike to the neck, and only works to prevent a thrust if the breastplate it is being used with has a stop-rib to glance the point away from the neck. Check out how they are constructed on actual armor. When these were worn in later periods without other armor, well… the issue of a blade glancing up your unarmored chest wouldn’t be likely as you’d just be skewered. Much later period gorgets are simply ornamental.
They way they’re being used by groups like the SCA they would end up trapping a blade at your neck as it slides up off your chest. No one at a modern fencing competition is permitted to wear something that could trap the point of their opponents blade.
Having rigid plates sewn into the jacket would be a better idea since the point can’t catch under the edge. Also a stop-rib on the collar similar to what you find on some FIE fencing jackets is a better idea.