Tests Results with Sanzo, Cassara, Bissdorf in Paris

[KD5MDK]

It's not a matter of manufacturers. It's the referee or armorer's job to verify that the mask is the appropriate size and coverage.

[CvilleFencer]

Strangely enough I am somewhat in favor of the bib being target. I am a bit annoyed when I ref or fence at local comps without armourer control and see the 12 year olds with the giant bibs covering all upper body shoulder and chest target down to their sternum. Besides, a thrust to the throat is just as fatal as a stab to the belly and more and more decisive at that. As to the safety factor, we epee fencers manage to keep out windpipes in working order despite the stiffer blades, heavier springs and generally harder hits (less worry about incidental corp a corp). So I think that will be fine. I can see where the extra cost of the mesh bib on the mask will be annoying and I think it will require that cheaper masks be made out of stainless mesh to avoid rust and scratches to the insulation turning the mesh conductive as well so I would figure the average "foil only" mask to be around 150-200 from a decent vendor which does suck.

I am much more put out by the lexan masks than I am by making bib target. What worries me is the two rules together making shots that end up hitting the lexan much more likely in foil, which is where so many young people start off. I think that the two rules together increase the risk of injury a fair amount but the FIE seems to not care a bit what the medical committee has to say about anything anymore.

As to the lockout times, I think that Favero's new timing chips would fix more problems that taking the debounce time from 15 to 12. For those of you who do not spend their spare time reading technical updates from fencing manufacturers here is the short version: Favero Letter RE T2005A

For the Favero machines at least, the debounce time is 13MS to comply with the 12-15MS FIE regs. Since there are still a fair number of no light hits with the 13MS time I don't think that alone is going to do anything to fix the problem. However, if other makers incorporate Favero's findings and versions of their fix into their own scoring boxes, that along with softer hands in the hit and better attention being paid to the weapons tape and tip travel should go a long way towards fixing the problem. The extra lockout time I don't really care for as that was the only thing about the timing change I did like. I am an epeeist after all... However it does seem to give the correct ROW action a bit more precedence over the counterattack against ROW/retreat (which I have rather enjoyed...) that I have seen a lot at lower levels.

I guess we will be spending another $300 dollars this year to update to the current timings... again! Maybe the USFA, since this is not an Olympic year, may just decide to wait a year to see if these "test" changes become anything close to permanent?

[Kat]

Originally Posted by gladius

introduction of a conductive mask's bib

Sounds like preparation for getting rid of off target...

[KD5MDK]

It would need a puppy in the picture too for that...

[DHCJr]

Originally Posted by swordsen

If companies still made masks with bibs that actually followed the rules there wouldn't be that big an issue. the rule on the bib says, (or used to say,a t least) that the bib on a foil mask could not extend over the collar bones. An epee mask's bib on the other hand was required to extend over the collar bones. with the bib sizes people have today it is not uncommon to see some small statured person with a bib that covers half of the their chest. Hence the bib becoming target. Is it good? Probably not. Another unneeded expense. And the lame will wear and need replaced often Bleah. But I can see why it would be done.

Could you let me know the rule 'that the bib on a foil mask could not extend over the collar bones.' Foil does not have a specific rule for the bib. In the Appendix there is a rule for all mask, that the bib be between 10 - 12cm. So the same size bib (in Foil) for a child is the same size as for a 6'6" adult.

As far as why in Epee the bib is not considered a problem is because the arm and hand are considered target area. Why go for the neck when the arm and hand are closer. Forcing the attack away from the neck is much safer.

[Kiwifencer]

Barry Paul - we await your comments. If (again) the manufacturers refuse to make the required mods??

Where does the bib line end going up the mask...

[cowpaste]

Maskcord will still be required to ensure a good electrical connection between bib and lamé.

Anyway, if bib becomes target area, I'm gonna start attacking to the mask really hard in an attempt to chip push through (or at least damage) the paint and score off of the mask. Yay!

[fencerchica]

I agree that this manic rule-changing is extremely annoying. But on the other hand, I have to admit I kind of like this new timing + bib as target proposal. (I just hope to God they'll let well enough alone after this one... shyeah, right)

I think CvilleFencer made lots of good points. I, too, have heard reference to a rule (which I admit I haven't read for myself) concerning limitations on bib coverage. Yet, it seems to me a larger bib makes for a much safer mask. When I see people with uber-short bibs, I wince and clutch at my throat, immediately visualizing points riding up underneath them. But of course the nice big protective bibs, if non-conductive as they are now, carry the problem of too much valid target being covered. And on top of that, including the throat as valid target is something which I believe follows true to the essence of foil, as an idealized weapon targeting the vital torso (or torso-ish) areas, excluding the face/head and limbs.

The extra expense for a new mask design is a real bummer... but I think I actually would kinda like the idea of not hitting off target all the time (like I do now) because my opponent's bibs are so long (and yet not feeling able to gripe, because I'd be sort of scared for them if they were shorter).

[Alan]

Originally Posted by gladius

The most important new changes concern the shortening of the foil impact time which will now be 12 milliseconds [it was before the changes 1-5 ms, changed to 13-15 ms, and now will go down to 12 ms], and the blocking time will now become 400 milliseconds [was 750 +/-50 ms, became 300 +/-25 ms, and now will increase to 400 ms].

This is a great success for the FIS since this partial return to the past had been strongly advocated by the President Giorgio Scarso during his meeting with Roch in Paris not long ago. This is also a great success for the athletes, a large majority of whom had expressed their dislike for the new rules introduced during this season.

This is in fact a great success for the vast majority of foilists which
expressed against these broken test timings and forced King René
to go back !!!

Great day even if 12 ms may not solve all problems.

It is also a proof that the test lockout time was also a problem.


If only his majesty was not inventing constantly stupid rules like
tranparent masks and conductive bibs, all the foilists could celebrate it !

But this shows clearly the necessity for the foilists to continue
their actions to avoid foil to be perverted in the sake of business.

[sarmaticus]

Originally Posted by fencerchica

Yet, it seems to me a larger bib makes for a much safer mask. When I see people with uber-short bibs, I wince and clutch at my throat, immediately visualizing points riding up underneath them.

In my experience, it is most important that the mask itself isn't too loose a fit. I've twice had foil points find their way up past my eye and down again. A big mask with a long bib tends to gape at the chest. Properly fitting masks are most important. The throat itself has the plastron colllar (on some), the jacket collar, the lame collar and the bib to protect it.

[BoutAfrica]

This all seems great for the manifacturing companies. As soon as we fork out money for our nice new transparent masks we'll have to cough up more money for a new electric bib mask. A waste of a perfectly good mask.

[Basquet]

I'm not a fencer, just a parent of one, but as such I worry a little about having a new target area in the neck region. Might not some fencers choose to target that area specifically, and might that not increase the chances that a blade will slip between the bib and jacket, resulting in potentially serious injury to a very vulnerable part of the body? I have seen that happen already...it's not pretty.

[Welted 24/7]

Yes, it'll probably increase neck hits, since the bib is soft and the tip won't just bounce off like it does with the chest. This is a very not good thing, since an occasional, accidental shot to the neck was enough to make me need a second to get my breath. It seems like they WANT foilists to get hurt.

[kalivor]

Originally Posted by CvilleFencer

As to the safety factor, we epee fencers manage to keep out windpipes in working order despite the stiffer blades, heavier springs and generally harder hits (less worry about incidental corp a corp).

Well, in epee the throat is hardly primary target. It's harder to hit and further away than the torso -- so why go for it?

In foil, it doesn't matter if a target is a bit further away -- you're protected by RoW. If the changes to the debounce timing don't eliminate those hits on the chest that fail to register, then the neck will become THE reliable target in the high lines, and receive a lot more hits than it does in epee. That, to me, is the danger. The only reason for an epeeist to PURPOSELY hit the neck is an attempt to hurt the other person. If they're just trying to score, they're probably aiming elsewhere. With the current situation in foil, the neck might prove to be the most reliable target.

Otherwise, my only real problems with the bib being target are money-related. First, a new mask, then more frequent replacement for that mask, as it will be harder to keep it insulated from the lame material, and loss of conductivity in the bib. Hopefully Leon Paul will apply their sabre-style bib exchange to it, though (only with a well-insulated connection to the mask), and there will be cheaper options.

[kalivor]

Originally Posted by Neil

Does anyone have any actual evidence to show that 12 ms timing will register direct hits as consistently as the 1-5 ms timing did?

I will be flabbergasted if a 12 ms impact, 400ms blockout time turns out to be the 'optimum point'.

Well, it won't register hits of any kind as consistently as 1-5 ms of debounce time did -- the tip needs to be depressed longer, so less hits will score.

What I do think, though, is that people trust tests that include the fencers involved much more than they do decrees from the FIE concerning timings that seem to come out of nowhere.

It sounds like they hooked some very good foil fencers up, had them fence at 15ms, 12ms, and likely some shorter ones, and observed the results. This sounds like an improvement to me.

[Alan]

Originally Posted by Welted 24/7

Yes, it'll probably increase neck hits, since the bib is soft and the tip won't just bounce off like it does with the chest. This is a very not good thing, since an occasional, accidental shot to the neck was enough to make me need a second to get my breath. It seems like they WANT foilists to get hurt.

What i would like to understand is

what is the interest of making the bib valid ???


(apart from selling new equipment.)


Does King René wins something every time he proposes a new "'(-èàç_è-
change ?

[RebelFencer]

Originally Posted by Alan

What i would like to understand is

what is the interest of making the bib valid ???


(apart from selling new equipment.)


Does King René wins something every time he proposes a new "'(-èàç_è-
change ?

To stop people (mostly youth fencers I'd imagine) from using the bib of the mask to cover target. While I think most of the changes have bastardized foil, I actually think that if it is implemented well...the bib rule could be a good thing. The old timings would be nice, but that isn't going to happen, so oh well. Thank God I made the switch.

[gladius]

I find this article on Schermanet.it signed by toni to be reflective of the opinions of many who care for fencing.

http://www.schermanet.it/modules.php...rder=1&thold=0

A first step: don't get worse! RELIEF FOR FOIL

I read with great relief the news on the FIS website about the tests results in Paris with Salvatore Sanzo and Andrea Cassara`

I didn't think it could be possible; it appears that the suicidal race by Roch to eliminate foil finally is stopped and even better, we have a small but significant step backwards.

.....

I often wonder whether Roch understands anything about fencing. Not that I am an expert but -- just to use a metaphor -- you don't need to be a chef to realize that adding salt to a cake will not make it sweeter.

For example, his next proposal to be submitted to the FIE Congress will be to eliminate the double touch in epee to make this weapon more dynamic and quick. Now, those who practice epee, know very well that the tactical characteristics of this weapon without the double touch will lead to take fewer risks, to wait for the opponent to make a mistake, and hence a more static bout.

When applied to the real world of competition the new foil timings also got the opposite effects. Now only half of the bouts end up at 15 before time runs out, while previously in general they did not go past the second period.

......

The good news is "Hey, let's stop here and now because we've already been too wrong!"

The timings will be readjusted slightly in the direction towards the "old" timings. The old impact time was 1-5 ms; the new was 13-15 ms; the adjusted new time will be set at 12 ms.

The old blocking time for the double touch was 700-800 ms; the new was 275-325 ms; the adjusted new time will be set to 400 ms.

It is important to notice that these adjusted timings are very close to those recommended by ing. Marcello Baiocco as the limits that should not be exceeded to guarantee the linearity of the fencing phrase. Baiocco identified the impact time to be 11 ms and the blocking time to be 350 ms. [Baiocco is the former president of the FIE SEMI Commission. He resigned after last December elections for foreseeable disagreements with Roch].

......

I don't share the triumphalism of the FIS website, but I am glad to see that there is a little return to the origins, and even more that this crazy course aimed at suppressing foil has been halted if nothing more for a moment.

Thank you Andrea [Cassara`] and especially thank you Toti [Sanzo]

[RebelFencer]

What the hell? I swear, if he messes with Epee' I don't know what I'm going to do. Why get rid of double touches? What purpose will that serve at all? All it would leave us with is the stereotypical paint-drying epee' bout.

[CvilleFencer]

Originally Posted by BoutAfrica

This all seems great for the manifacturing companies. As soon as we fork out money for our nice new transparent masks we'll have to cough up more money for a new electric bib mask. A waste of a perfectly good mask.

Sell it to an EPEEist! If it is an xl LP visored contour fit I would be interested! Seriously foilists, if the rule does become the law of the land (and it seems very likely too) you can still get some return on your investment if it is in sellable quality by putting it on ebay or selling it at your club to Epee fencers. If it is in such bad shape that no one will buy it, you probably need to buy a new one to begin with...