Directing--numbers vs. names and other tricks of the trade

[sabreur]

Ok, since Craig suggested it.

When you are directing, how do you maintain order and keep things moving?

I call numbers AND names for the next bout and the on-deck bout.

I try to keep people from crowding my space, so I can move with the fencers and keep the lights in view.

If I have someone (a spectator) who is being over-vocal, I will look directly at them, put my finger to my lips, and say, "shhhh!"

[Peach]

I call numbers and names, I use a loud voice, I announce score after each touch, I use hand signals, and I'm notorious for chasing coaches to the end of the strip and keeping spectators quiet (@ the Temple Open this year I informed one vociferous but amiable crowd that I got cranky when people shouted in my ear, so they were all MOST respectful, bless them). It helps that I'm a teacher and have no problem firmly and courteously asserting my will on strangers.

One thing that helps is "wait time"--give instructions and then wait until they are followed. Don't repeat, don't nag, don't snap and then look away; ask and wait. People will do what you want. I also warn spectators that I "tend to wander" which gets people off the side pretty fast--something about the prospect of being stepped on or tripped over is wonderfully stimulating.

I restate the names of the fencers at the beginning of the bout if I'm unfamiliar with them (college refereeing or youth events mostly) and at the break ("to my left Jones, to my right Smith") but that's for my benefit.

However, I lose time on one thing, which may not be necessary for other refs, but BELIEVE me is a favor when I'm refereeing--I insist that at least one of my fencers check my arithmetic if I have to total the sheet, and I try to get someone else to total it if I can. I'm brilliant at math but lousy at arithmetic.

I tend to call the action too quickly and don't always remember to use the hand signals for parry or attack-no, but I always remember to put my hand up for the fencer who scored. I've had fencers tell me that they might disagree with my calls (big surprise, I'm a sabre ref) but they always know exactly what has happened.

[jeff]

All my directing is local and scholastic. Small time action, here...

I call numbers and names (It's not that hard, and it saves so much grief). Unless it's somebody I know well, I address fencers as "Mr. So-and-so" or "Ms. So-and-so", or, if they're already on strip, as "left" and "right": "Right, please retreat one meter". I try to use please and thank you consistently. I use a loud voice, especially in dual meets because everybody is screaming till your ears are ready to bleed.

I call the score after every touch and almost always try to have a score keeper do the same thing; another precaution to save grief. I also use "Jeff's patented low cost extension lamps" to show the score: I hold out fingers on each hand to show the number of touches - doesn't work at all in DEs. I sometimes forget to use hand signals, especially if I'm holding a score sheet and stopwatch.

I will stop the action to shoo coaches and spectators from the sides or the end of the strip. People will camp out there, even with their equipment, right where the fencers can trip.

I sometimes break down actions unnecessarily when I could have just said "Left". Maybe a bad habit, I dunno, but I've picked it up from doing HS and very junior matches where having a phrase broken up either explains to the new ones, or lets them know from the outset that I can see phrases. 30 seconds after making the call I have no recollection of it. Another quirk I have, in particular in dual meets where one team knows me and the other doesn't, is that I will gather the fencers before we start and give them advance notice of what to expect: what I consider an attack or merely a preparation, what is needed to get PiL, and so forth. This way, one team doesn't have an advantage over the other, and nobody can claim they didn't know in advance.

[Welted 24/7]

Another small-timer here, local stuff is the extent of what I do. I usually call names and numbers, because it seems like no matter how hard I try, there are always at least a few people who don't know their numbers. I also encourage people to come take a gander at the bout list while I'm doodling in the scores from the bout that just ended, so they can get ready in advance if they're on deck or in the hole. It makes life a little easier. Now, finding people when you call their DE and they're off doing god knows what, that's a little harder. But I find when I start announcing "This is your last call before a card", their selective loss of hearing dissipates like magic.

doesn't work at all in DEs.

Sure it does! Just have to learn ASL numbers. Anyway, as far as what Jeff said about explaining, I have a somewhat similar philosophy, although I usually only fully explain when I feel it needs to be explained. My normal calls usually involve more than "Touch left/right", extending back about two actions or so, like "Attack from left is parried, riposte is counter-parried, counter-riposte from left lands." I could have just said "riposte from the left", but that's one of those I feel needs to be explained, since you can never really tell if people at a local event in my area know what happened. Some do, some need it explained, so I prefer to just stay on the safe side and explain. Nothing really in-depth, unless somebody actually asks for it, but enough to get the point across- "You did this, but they did that, so that's why it's their touch."

I haven't had to deal with coaches yet, except for a certain Mr. Wee/Wu/Wai or whatever they feel like calling him this time. As far as loud spectators, it's usually taken care of by just asking for quiet.

[oso97]

One thing I was really trying to work on this year at Summer Nats was being pleasent while still being efficient and speedy. Its not an easy balance. For the DivI, Junior and even the Cadet events, its pretty easy. The fencers know the routine. So I like to use numbers for the most part, but one thing I do, is I do make sure that everyone KNOWS what their number is. During the pre-pool inspection, I bring them all together, and introduce myself to them, go over everyone's equipment, remind them of stuff that the FOC has asked us to work on (like this time it was the end-of-bout salute and hair on lame). Then, I show them the bout sheet, and point to both the fencer and his/her name on the page to make sure they know what the number is. I also remind them to check the scoresheet after every bout to #1 make sure I wrote it down correctly, and #2, know when their next bout is up. I call the bouts using numbers, and keep track of the score on a small pad in my hand - which also has the numbers. And I write down the on-deck bout there as well, so I can call it out as soon as the bout is over. Another thing I do, is try to remember who is each number and make eye contact with them when I'm calling them to strip. Doesn't ALWAYS work, but after a couple of bouts, the fencers start expecting it, and that can help move things along, while still being pleasent.

Also the cadance that you use when making your calls can really affect the tempo of the pool. The first time you make the call it should be clear enough that you don't have to repeat yourself, without being overly drawn out and involved. Hand signals work wonders here.

Now with the kiddie events, its a different story. There is a lot more hand holding there, and helping required. Again, though, I still use numbers, but I make double sure that every kid knows what his/her number is. And I communicate that information to them at every opportunity. I also remind them after every bout is over to check the scoresheet and to see when their bout is up next. A good trick I learned this year is to get down on their level when doing the pre-inspection. Kneel down, sit on a chair... look them in the eye, it really helps. Hopefully next season I'll remember to do that.

[epeemike81]

Originally Posted by sabreur

Ok, since Craig suggested it.

When you are directing, how do you maintain order and keep things moving?

I call numbers AND names for the next bout and the on-deck bout.

At the beginning of the pool, I call the fencers together and tell them "It's a long tournament and my voice needs to last for all 4 days. I'm not going to be calling bouts. The scoresheet will be right here on the table. You can look at it whenever you want. It's your responsibility to know when you should be on strip."

I've also done it with calling names. In my experience, not calling leads to a MUCH more efficient pool. after a bout, I walk over and record the score. by the time I finish recording the score, the next set of fencers is usually hooked up and ready to be tested.

I try to keep people from crowding my space, so I can move with the fencers and keep the lights in view.

I do the same, though in sabre and foil I tend not to move from the center (assuming I have room to be sufficiently far from the strip).

If I have someone (a spectator) who is being over-vocal, I will look directly at them, put my finger to my lips, and say, "shhhh!"

Unless they are actually disturbing order, I don't really care if they're "over-vocal." If they are disturbing order, spectator warning. It's called a warning for a reason. they don't get a warning before the warning, IMO.

-m

[epeemike81]

Originally Posted by Peach

("to my left Jones, to my right Smith")

I believe DJ Apostrophe actually reffed this bout at Summer Nationals....

I guess he was right when he called it "The most generic bout ever."

-m

[parrythis]

All good comments so far.

My question is this. When you have fencers on the piste that have parents on the sidelines protesting and arguing any touch that goes against their precious offspring , what do you, as a director, do to deal with that situation?

[Welted 24/7]

Never happened to me...yet. But my friend has had this problem before. His standard response is usually something like "If you have a problem, you can go to the bout committee and ask for an observer." The ones who actually follow up on this usually shut up when the observer tells the parents that there's nothing wrong with the calls.

[haroldbuck]

Originally Posted by Peach

I'm brilliant at math but lousy at arithmetic.

I doubt many people understand the distinction, but I understand exactly what you mean. I'm very good at mathematics and okay at arithmetic, so I guess we average out about the same.

[oso97]

Depends. If its a national tournament and they're outside the ropes, ignore them.

If its a DE and they're in the coach's box, repeat the call ONCE, while making eye contact, in a friendly and polite manner using LARGE hand signals (i.e. "this was the call, did you miss it?"). If they start to come out of the box, then I do a little drawing of a square with one finger, and point to it.

9 times out of 10 that does the trick. After that, I start reaching for a card and that takes care of most of the rest. If it starts escalating, I issue the card and immediately send a runner to find an FOC.

At a local event, similar stuff, but not quite as formal. By and large, I don't respond to protests from coaches/parents, other than to repeat the call once, making eye contact with them, to make sure that they saw it correctly.

And yea, it takes a certain amount of cojones to do that, especially when the coach in question is Arkady or Ed or someone like that and they're glaring at you with their best domination hat on. I'll usually also give a shrug as if to say, "well, that's best I can see based upon the screwed up action your fencer just did. Its not MY fault that she got caught in preparation..."

I did that exact routine the first day of Summer Nats this year during a bout with BOTH Ed and Arkady. Sheesh, you want to talk about nerve testing! But, most of the time they'd then nod as if to say, "okay, yea, you're blind, but I can live with it, so long as you don't change the call the next time it happens."

[jeff]

I ignore them, unless they are getting in my face and "disturbing order". In that case, I'm slow to pull cards, perhaps too slow. I glare at them (two can play this game) tell the malefactor that their continued acting out will lead to penalties. Maybe I should just be a hard-*** and pull cards.

The worst I've had are coaches, not parents. It's funny, they'll scream for touches where their guy is obviously wrong. Last season I turned around and looked at one of these guys and gave him an incredulous "You gotta be kidding". I guess they feel that's part of their job.

Welted: that was American Sign Language, right? Cool idea. My only other thought was to count in binary, but how would I tell people which finger is the high order bit...

[Goofy]

Going with 'protesting and arguing' as being exceedingly disruptive and, possibly, offensive:

* For as long as possible, ignore it.
* If it continues, and possibly worsens, instruct the offender to be quiet.
* If the instruction is ignored, red card the offender and threaten to start carding the fencer.
* Onward, option one: Red card the fencer; this could result in the fencer telling the offender to keep out of it.
* Onward, option two: Black card the offender.

Of course, let as much time as possible go by between each of these. Gripers often give up if they are not responded to.

[Purple Fencer]

Originally Posted by parrythis

All good comments so far.

My question is this. When you have fencers on the piste that have parents on the sidelines protesting and arguing any touch that goes against their precious offspring , what do you, as a director, do to deal with that situation?

Had this happen to me a few times...I usually turn to them and say clearly "Would you like a card?" The usually shuts up the ones who know how the sport works...other times I'll just say "without looking at them" I have made the call..." and call the fencers to en garde...making an effort to mostly ignore the protests tells them their opinion doesn't matter.

I DID have one parent ***** at me after I carded her son for something...I told her in no uncertain terms that -- for good or ill -- I was the bout director...end of subject.

One of the first things Derek Cotton teaches in his directing clinics is to apply the rules and don't care who wins...that also applies to spectators...you're there to direct the bout not make the parents happy. if they don't like your calls, sucks to be them.

As for calling names/numbers...I do it oretty much the same was Peach does. I like to pronouce the names correctly, especially if it's a difficult one...love the look on a fencer's face when I nail it! Best one was a fencer named Nguyen...basically the Vietnamese version of Smith. A lot of people pronounce it "n-goo-yen", which is totally wrong, or "winn" which is closer. However, the correct way is "winn" with a VERY soft N preceeding it.

[peet]

One great little tip i got a while ago:

Keep all your cards in different pockets, so that you can pull out the right one without looking & fumbling. Makes you look like you know what you're doing, which as all refs know, goes a long way towards keeping the argumentative fencers/coaches/parents at bay.

It also prevents you from pulling out all three in a stack, showing the yellow (on one side of the stack) to the fencer, but the red (on the other side of the stack) to the coach behind you (who freaks out at you for red carding their fencer)!

re: names/numbers:
I call the bouts by number, and have never had much trouble. I tell the fencers that i'm going to do it that way, and I check in the fencers at the beginning of the pool in numerical order, finishing each inspection with "you are fencer #1, up first, called to the right.", "you are fencer #2, on deck, called to the right.", etc...

I used to do the "i'm not calling the bouts at all, please know when you're up" thing, which was really nice, as it saves the voice, and seemed to work well (even in the y12!), until an FOC told me to call the bouts.

That being said, I do also try to pronounce the fencers' names correctly, asking how at the beginning of the pool i'm not sure. Mostly because my name has been massacred all my life, so i hate to do it to others. You'd be surprised what people can do to the name "Sasaki". I've been called every motorcycle manufactured ("suzuki", "kawasaki", etc), I've been an alcoholic beverage ("sake"), and I've even been called "Sowaski", which made me think "do i LOOK Polish to you?"

-p

[epeemike81]

Originally Posted by parrythis

All good comments so far.

My question is this. When you have fencers on the piste that have parents on the sidelines protesting and arguing any touch that goes against their precious offspring , what do you, as a director, do to deal with that situation?

Ignore them unless they step over the line, then card them.

-m

[epeemike81]

Originally Posted by haroldbuck

I doubt many people understand the distinction, but I understand exactly what you mean. I'm very good at mathematics and okay at arithmetic, so I guess we average out about the same.

One of my favorite lines when presented with arithmetic: "I'm a math major! do you know how long it's been since I've seen a number??"

-m

[oiuyt]

Originally Posted by jeff

My only other thought was to count in binary

Until the bout gets to 4-4 and you have parents bringing down the FOCs on you.... :)

-B :)