How was Refereeing at Nationals

[R. Exnicios]

I was unable to go to Nationals this year due to the wonderful arrival of my son the week before.

I was wondering how it went from the perspective of the Referees. Any big changes we should know about?

Anyone get a big fat rating increase?

Do tell.

Cheers

R

[AntonioDelMonte]

in my pool in div 2 foil the was like 30 cards given out i was starting to wonder if our director was going to get a toaster for how many cards he was giving out

[oso97]

then maybe you guys need to stop covering target area, letting your socks fall down and start showing up to strip with working weapons....

To answer the original questions though: It was actually a pretty good experience. The FOC's were pretty much as they usually were, and for what I saw, supportive and fair. There was the usual morning harranging, by the usual suspects, but certainly not as bad as I've seen in the past. The food was... well, lets just say that one day it was supposed to be chicken marsala and we all thought it was badly made chinease stir fry chicken... As usual, there was a shortage of weights and shims at times, but not drastically so. There were also a LOT of referees - at least for the days I was working. Even though we worked until late several nights, the FOC was pretty good about resting us as neccessary and sending us out in pairs (for pools) and groups (for DE brackets) so that you weren't refereeing constantly and were able to still function at 10:30 PM.

As far as new stuff - well, they want us to really emphasize the salute at the end of the bout. And by salute, they mean, fencers take distance from each other, salute each other, the referee and the gallery. THEN shake hands. Also, absolutely no hair on the lame. Period. Gather the fencers together, tell them about this at the beginning, and then issue cards when they fail to do it.

Also, the sports zone continues to be used - to various degrees of success. But its getting better. A number of coaches though still think its beneath them to have to deal with it.

No new rules implimented at Summer Nats - thank GOD. Although, the FIE congress is still coming up, so no promises on that yet.

Rating increases, well, I was told I would be recommended for an increase at the FOC meeting in the fall by a couple of members. We'll see, but I have high hopes. I've done quite a few bouts above my level over the course of the year.

Oh, and congrats to you and Nancy about your son! He'll be a foilist, I presume?

[sabreman]

I had very good refs at Nationals. This made up for Denver.

[fluidfencer]

One of our first crop of rated referees was our first (other than our coach) to referee at a national event. A young guy but very talented. I hope they boosted his rating.

[fencerX]

Originally Posted by oso97

Also, absolutely no hair on the lame. Period. Gather the fencers together, tell them about this at the beginning, and then issue cards when they fail to do it.

It was somewhat amusing and somewhat sad when I observed a ref that had trouble understanding the no hair on lame directive. He turned it into no hair on back and started warning epee fencers.

[dekko]

The only ref rating increase I heard about that is very well deserved is for Jennifer Oldham-Cox. She had a 7 in sabre and will likely go up one or two levels after her great reffing the first half of nationals.

[Greg_D]

If you refereed at Summer Nationals and had a rating from 5-10 there is a possibility that your rating has been upgraded. All of the upgrades that were decided upon by the FOC representatives at the tournament have already been entered into the FOC Ratings database with "Last Update" dates of 7/14 or 7/15.

If you had a rating of 5-10, worked at Summer Nationals, and did not receive an upgrade (and legitimately believe that you deserved one) feel free to contact me. I'll either give you some feedback myself or will check with my colleagues on your behalf. Remember that, even if you were flawless, you need to have worked at a level higher than your previous rating. If you had a 5 and were hoping to go to a 4, you needed to work towards the end of one of the heavier events (Div I, Div IA, Div I team, Jr, etc.).

If you have a 4 or better in a particular weapon there is one meeting per year where the FOC discusses these ratings. That meeting will happen at the end of August.

On a personal note... I want to thank everyone that worked at Summer Nationals. I believe that this was the best cadre we have ever had. You did a fantastic job and we all really appreciated the hard work and attention that everyone paid.

Yours,

Greg

[tbryan]

Originally Posted by Greg_D

If you refereed at Summer Nationals and had a rating from 5-10 there is a possibility that your rating has been upgraded.

Cool! No one mentioned it to me, but I see that I've been bumped up to a 5 in Epee.

I just got rated as a director last year, and this summer was my first time directing at a national event. I wasn't really going for a rating increase: I just wanted experience refereeing a larger, more stressful tournament. Overall, a very good experience. There was a lot less "here's what we expect you to do" than I expected, but I think that may be because my first day directing was on the second Friday. Even the new directors that week had mostly been refereeing a few days already by the time I got there. For example, no one told me whether I needed to pick up weights and shims and where to get them until I was already supposed to be at the strip. Luickly, I knew some of the more experienced referees, and they helped to make sure that I wasn't completely lost.

I had hoped to do a bit of foil and a bit of epee. I was originally assigned to Div III Women's Foil with another ref, but then they realized that they had run out of epee refs. So, I ended up doing epee (by myself) the whole time. I took Vet Men's Epee 40+, Vet Women's Epee 50+, and Div II Men's Epee. I believe that's the first time I've ever directed epee on grounded strips, and I liked it a lot. Everyone on my strips where very polite even when they disagreed. I had some complaints, but I believe that I kept control of the strip pretty well. For example, one fencer started to complain because I tested his opponent's weapon and annulled a touch. The weapon failed to register a touch on the first test. I tested again because I wasn't sure that I had completely depressed the tip. It registered a touch. I fullly depressed the tip again: no touch. I annulled the touch. His opponent started to complain because he "saw the weapon register a touch" while I was testing. Knowning the rules really well helps to quiet such complaints quickly and efficiently.

I know that I really blew one call. Epee fencer on the right had pushed his opponent all the way back into the warning zone on the left side of the strip, and they're both right at the lateral edge of the strip. I'm trying to keep an eye on the strip boundaries and the fencers and the lights when the fencer on the right begins a smooth advance-fleche. At the beginning of this attack, I heard a very beep. I kept myself from calling halt because it could have been from the next strip over. At the same time, the fencer on the left (the defender, back in his warning zone) stomps his foot and waves his hand. I notice it a bit late and call halt after the attacker has already started to launch the fleche. I clearly see the fleche hit the defender. There is one light for the attacker, the fencer on the right. I ask the defender why he asked for a halt, and he says that he saw his opponent's light illuminated on the box before the attack. That fencer's coach and parent are now adding their input from outside the pod. Now, I didn't see the light on the box (not sure why, either it was obscured or the stomp and wave from the defender fixed my attention away from the lights). I also didn't call halt until the fleche was begun, so I felt that the fencer had a right to finish his action. Since I didn't see the light before the touch, I didn't feel that I could annul the touch.

The defender was distraught. I believed him about the box scoring the touch prematurely (having heard something), but I didn't feel that I could annul the touch without seeing the light. He ended up winning 5-1. I didn't tell him, but I felt that he simply got screwed. I didn't see the light go off before the touch, and if I had, I certainly would have annulled the touch. I didn't see his signals soon enough to call halt before the final motion of the attack. It's my mistake, but given the events, do you think that I made the right decision (to allow the touch)?

I do not think that I tested the attacker's gear sufficiently at that time, which I certainly should have done. I did see the same problem in a later bout with the same fencer. From the guard lines, he extended his arm and his light went on. I checked his weapon and body cable at that time. I couldn't reproduce the problem, but I made him change weapons anyway. I'm guessing that his cable or weapon had a short somewhere. That was the last time we saw the problem, and I felt fine about all of the the rest of my directing.

I thankfully didn't need my black card. I'm not looking forward to giving my first black.

As a fencer, I like directing because it forces me to reread the rules and brush up a bit. For example, in at least one bout I was watching, I saw a fencer lose ground because his back foot crossed the lateral boundaries. Rereading the rules, I see that one foot over the lateral boundary is a halt and a recenter, but the offender should not lose any ground. A director made the same mistake in a bout that I was fencing just a couple of months ago, but I had forgotten the details of the lateral boundary rules.

[oso97]

Originally Posted by tbryan

As a fencer, I like directing because it forces me to reread the rules and brush up a bit. For example, in at least one bout I was watching, I saw a fencer lose ground because his back foot crossed the lateral boundaries. Rereading the rules, I see that one foot over the lateral boundary is a halt and a recenter, but the offender should not lose any ground. A director made the same mistake in a bout that I was fencing just a couple of months ago, but I had forgotten the details of the lateral boundary rules.

Wrong.

t.28A competitor who crosses one of the lateral boundaries of the strip with one or both feet is penalized. When the competitors are replaced on guard, the opponent of the competitor who has crossed the lateral boundary will step forward one meter from the position he occupied when his opponent left the strip; the competitor who is penalized must retreat in order to resume the correct fencing distance. If the exercise of this penalty places a competitor with both feet beyond the rear limit of the strip, that competitor is considered as having been touched. A competitor who crosses one of the lateral boundaries of the strip with one or both feet – e.g. when making a fleche – to avoid being touched will be penalized as specified in Articles t.114, t.116, t.120.

[KShan5[PrFC]]

This was my first time reffing at Nationals, and I got stuck in kiddy epee land for quite a while. Although I eventually was granted the pleasure of some sabre directing, for the most part I directed epee. It was fun, the worst thing that happened to me was i had to give a group 3 red card to a fencer for spiking his mask. I learned however, that I really like sabre reffing and want to do it a lot more.

[peet]

I'm a 4 now.
Awesome.

As for the original question:

As a ref I found the experience to be a very good one. I got to ref mostly foil, my preferred weapon, so that's cool. I never felt over-worked; the only day I worked super late (~11:30?) was a day that I started at noon, so that worked out fine. (plus they cut me loose early the next day, knowing i'd worked late the night before. very cool.) I got to do a couple later-round bouts (round of 8 & 4) that were good bouts, and of course it's always more fun ref'ing when the fencing is good.

As mentioned above, there were lots of refs, so there didn't seem to be a time when the ones present were stretched too thin to cover the events. It would seem that the FOC's efforts to grow the ref ranks is starting to pay off.

The FOC was very supportive, even when the coaches got themselves into such a lather as to start throwing chairs. I believe Derek's words to that coach were to the effect of "We watched Peet correctly apply the rule three times, awarding cards that any one of us would have given in a heartbeat. Why are you over here complaining about the referee, instead of over there telling your fencer to stop covering target!!??"

Delivered as only Derek can, that was rather gratifying to hear.

I will say, there has been better ref food at other events, but there has been worse too. I was not ref'ing the day that it was pasta, which looked to be the best lunch of the week. (Darn! ) Also, it would have been nice to have water available in that ref waiting area behind the BC table. Or at least back there in the lunchroom.

To answer your question about new rules: No, there were no rule changes per se that you missed, but the FOC did direct us to set a strict standard for enforcing certain rules to make foil a fair weapon to fence. With the new timings, foil has gotten pretty messy, and it has fallen to the refs to try to keep it clean by strictly enforcing certain rules. So, for all you folks refereeing at local tournaments who didn't hear this at nationals, you might want to be aware, and enforce these rules the way they will be at national events, so the fencers are not surprised:

1. Covering target with the mask (duck & cover while remise/counterattack): bend over at the waist all you want, but when your head bends over so that you look at the floor rather than at your opponent, you get a card.

2. Corps a corps: People are closing distance to avoid the riposte even more than before. Any body contact at all, one or both fencers get cards.

3. Covering target while reversing shoulders: Get that non-weapon arm up in the air, or get a card.

Am I forgetting any?
Anyone?


-p

[peet]

Congratulations to Richard & Nancy on the new addition to the family!!

[oso97]

Originally Posted by peet

To answer your question about new rules: No, there were no rule changes per se that you missed, but the FOC did direct us to set a strict standard for enforcing certain rules to make foil a fair weapon to fence. With the new timings, foil has gotten pretty messy, and it has fallen to the refs to try to keep it clean by strictly enforcing certain rules. So, for all you folks refereeing at local tournaments who didn't hear this at nationals, you might want to be aware, and enforce these rules the way they will be at national events, so the fencers are not surprised:

1. Covering target with the mask (duck & cover while remise/counterattack): bend over at the waist all you want, but when your head bends over so that you look at the floor rather than at your opponent, you get a card.

2. Corps a corps: People are closing distance to avoid the riposte even more than before. Any body contact at all, one or both fencers get cards.

3. Covering target while reversing shoulders: Get that non-weapon arm up in the air, or get a card.

Am I forgetting any?
Anyone?

4) Stepping off strip to avoid a touch. I saw more than one person doing it. Same card as corps-a-corps to avoid a touch.

[KShan5[PrFC]]

on the subject of the lunchroom.....having the PA work in there would be nice. I neer had this problem (perhaps it's because I was afraid to stay in there too long, and didn't want to miss being called while at my first nationals) but I know plenty of refs who missed there first and even second calls because they were eating lunch, or just taking a quick break. there was a phone in the room, but I never saw it used.....and yes, imo, the pasta was the best lunch of the week.

[peet]

Originally Posted by oso97

4) Stepping off strip to avoid a touch. I saw more than one person doing it. Same card as corps-a-corps to avoid a touch.

Oh yeah-
I forgot that one 'cause I didn't see it done much.

-p

[edew]

I, too, have never handed out so many cards at a tournament. Most of my pool sheets included at least 8-10 warnings, some with multiple cards (red or both fencers at yellow or higher). I only had one complaint about my carding. It occurred in the team match between Boston and Twin Cities. I gave a red card for corps-a-corps which gave the 45th point to Boston. I call them as I see them.

[Inquartata]

I seem to be in a minority. I found the refereeing I had to be adequate but by no means stellar, and thought it was better overall in Denver. Of course I can only speak to the sabre officiating, but there only seemed to be two or three refs who could see things like attacks where the foot came down on the lunge before the cut landed, making it a remise. Even those wren't calling it as often as it happened.

Oddly, too, the boxes in use featured a broader timing than the Favero ones we use in our club. Aren't the chips all supposed to be timed identically? Yet attacks in prep that lock out one light at home didn't on these machines---and against clubmates during warm-up, so it wasn't just that the opponents fenced differently. ( But I digress. )

Perhaps in consequence, the refereeing was a lot more like it was BEFORE the new timing than just after it came in: generous construction of the attack, long allowances for the riposte, two lights even over the bell given to the attacker most of the time, etc...

In foil, I watched a clubmate lose because the ref was calling preparations as in sabre.

I was able to make adjustments, but with a few exceptions I wasn't all that impressed.

[oso97]

Someone said previously that the record for the most cards in a bout was 30....

thats a lot of corps-a-corps and covering target area. Not that I wouldn't be surprised, considering the small smattering of foil I got to referee, and that was bad enough!

[The0ne]

refereeing was good. . . far less stressful than last year. Plenty of cards, plenty of moving coaches outside of boxes during pools. Lot's of fun. Oh yeah, and refereeing Div. I is much more fun than kiddie or junior stuff.