Lexan masks redux

[Inquartata]

A question for the manufacturers: If when the visor mask was first made mandatory all of the makers had refused to build any or to present them to the FIE for approval, what do you think would have happened? Does Roch have sanctions he could impose to force you to produce a given item? In other words, how much power does the FIE have in the manufacturing sector?

[DHCJr]

You have a point, but what if one manufacturer did make the mask and not only that, but pushed the mask and a certain president still required it. We would have an exclusive supplier.

Now of course, the FIE would never require for a competition any equipment that had an exclusive supplier, like let us say a wireless Sabre machine.

Maybe fencers could refuse to fence, which has happened in the past and the requirement for the finals was dropped for a while for Epee and Foil, but only for a while.

Here is a comment about this. The FIE and engineers know that lexan will deteriorate over time even if not used. That is why the FIE requires the lexan have an expiration date. Mathew Porter told me if they had enforced that FIE requirement, there would have been a Gold medal bout, but nothing else. There were only 2 masks with dates on them. Doesn’t that make everyone feel safe?

[prototoast]

Originally Posted by DHCJr

There were only 2 masks with dates on them. Doesn’t that make everyone feel safe?

Is there just one particular company that does this, and if so, which one?

[DHCJr]

I asked Matthew and he didn't notice. With only 4 legal manufacturers at the time, I doubt there was only 2 of one particular brand. It is possible that the dating was just done. I don't know.

[cornflower]

http://www.geocities.com/Colosseum/F...sks/masks.html

[DHCJr]

Going back to the original post. Fencers themselves have a power over the manufacturers. A number of years ago at a World Championship, I discussed with one of the manufacturers a piece of equipment they sold that was illegal. Their answer was, "So, the fencers buy it, why should we take the extra expense to make it legal."

If there is anyone planning on buying a visor mask, make sure the visor has a date and that it is within 2 years. They have a choice, sell the visors they have without dates or take the expense of replacing the visors in the masks. Which do you think they will choose?

You have 2 reasons to do this. Your face and your pocketbook. The visor may have deterirated over the how many years or you might get to a tournament they enforce the rules.

[Eduardo]

Can the date on the visor be counterfeit or otherwise manipulated? Is this a risk that should be considered?

[Feltan]

Originally Posted by DHCJr

Going back to the original post. Fencers themselves have a power over the manufacturers...

Indeed, I agree. I would also say that in general, fencers have a lot of conrol over the sport. It might take some very high caliber fencers to walk off the strip and withdraw from a competition rather than to use these Lexan masks in order for the FIE to back down.

Regards,
Feltan

[Peach]

The last time fencers refused to fence en masse to demonstrate against something (where was that? Not so long ago), I recall people here being thoroughly disapproving and suggesting that they all be sanctioned.

[DHCJr]

Originally Posted by Eduardo

Can the date on the visor be counterfeit or otherwise manipulated? Is this a risk that should be considered?

Considering, there have been a number of blades and masks that have been shown to have fake FIE marks or even marks of manufacturers that have never submitted their equipment to the FIE, YES. Even Microsoft with their hologram stickers have been faked.

If the manufacturers put on a date, it would be harder to change it.

[Inquartata]

Yes, with a market as small as the one for fencing equipment the individual, and still more the club, could have a measurable effect on demand and hence influence sellers and through them manufacturers. We need to be educated for that to happen, though.

Like, why do manufacturers continue to get away with things like putting illegal connector-cord tabs on sabre lames? To save a penny per lame, instead of just charging 2 pennies more per lame? If we refused to buy them I'll bet the vendors would send the message back to the makers PDQ...

[Feltan]

Originally Posted by Peach

The last time fencers refused to fence en masse to demonstrate against something (where was that? Not so long ago), I recall people here being thoroughly disapproving and suggesting that they all be sanctioned.

A wonderful topic for the 4th of July!

You certainly don't want people protesting over petty issues; however, this is safety. Furthermore, it is safety vs. a small elite group of people that think Lexan provides a better spectator experience for the sport.

You will note, on this 4th of July, that the U.S. National Championships are being fenced. There is no national T.V. coverage (that I have seen), nor is there even a webcam broadcast of the event (of which I am aware). The spectators of this event are on site, and are already devoted to fencing; they would be there no matter what.

So, one if forced to conclude that safety is being marginally compromised by the dictated use of Lexan at certain competitions, and that the spectators that are supposed to appreciate the facial expression of fencers are not watching in any great numbers. Which is not to say saftey should be compromised even if a million people were tuned in.

So Peach, do we shrink into the shadows to avoid upsetting the FIE? I find that a peculiar notion on this day.

Regards,
Feltan

[Inquartata]

No, I think she's saying the opposite---but pointing out that some complain and scoff at those who do protest in any concrete fashion.

IMO the FIE and Roch in particular are trying to build a tower to heaven. They have their eyes on this distant and unattainable goal and actually seem to believe that they can reach it by piling mundane rocks on top of each other. In reality the rocks are in their heads...

[Purple Fencer]

Originally Posted by Inquartata

No, I think she's saying the opposite---but pointing out that some complain and scoff at those who do protest in any concrete fashion.

IMO the FIE and Roch in particular are trying to build a tower to heaven. They have their eyes on this distant and unattainable goal and actually seem to believe that they can reach it by piling mundane rocks on top of each other. In reality the rocks are in their heads...

If you put an "e" at the end of Roch's name, isn't that the French word for rock? There ya go

[Zilverzmurfen]

Originally Posted by Purple Fencer

If you put an "e" at the end of Roch's name, isn't that the French word for rock? There ya go

...and if you put an "a" in the middle of his name, isn't that the english word for 'nasty little bug'..?

There you go again!

[Peach]

Originally Posted by Inquartata

No, I think she's saying the opposite---but pointing out that some complain and scoff at those who do protest in any concrete fashion....

Yeah, I'm saying the opposite.

At any rate, I caved and bought the transparent mask. I am unnerved by the blind spot caused by the lower frame of the transparent visor, and I find it disturbing to see as much detail of my opponent when I'm fencing--normally I just "see" the distance and the movement, not the texture of the lame and so on. It's a little harder to breathe in it, and it muffles sounds (I'm already hard of hearing). However, I got used to it pretty fast. Eh. I'm not impressed.

Frankly, you can't see someone's expression in it. You see a pair of intent eyes, that's all. For that kind of money, I could paint a pair of eyes on my mask mesh and buy an extra lame.

I'm told Leon Paul sells a transparent film you can put over the plastic so it doesn't scratch as badly.

[Purple Fencer]

Originally Posted by Peach

It's a little harder to breathe in it, and it muffles sounds (I'm already hard of hearing).

Hmmm....and wasn't that the medical commisson's concern....you know...the one that Roch ignored?

[Peach]

I can survive the inability to breathe, the muffled sounds, and the obscured vision. It's the possibility of shattering that disturbs me.

[esskreemr]

I have serious concerns about the Lexan masks. Unfortunately, I'm not of the caliber of fencer that has to worry about such conformance.

My main concern is sweat. I sweat profusely during physical activity. I'm concerned that the sweat would ahere to the mask "portal" and would require constant cleaning (do these masks come with wipers? ). My other concern is that the portal's framework in the mask's mesh itself would lend itself to rusting and would be a much more serious degredation in safety over the short to medium term than the typical rusting at the rivets where the non-mesh protection is connected to the mesh.

As I said, though, I will most likely (99.9% percent chance) never have to purchase one of these abominations. Unless of course the USFA suddenly loses is ability to reason.

[Purple Fencer]

Originally Posted by esskreemr

I'm concerned that the sweat would ahere to the mask "portal" and would require constant cleaning (do these masks come with wipers? ).

That would be the Elton John model...