Fencing.Net - Your Guide to Fencing & Fencing Equipment

remise · 06-29-2005, 02:24 PM

Has anyone ever come across a fencer that covers target with their weapon arm? How do you deal with that?

remise · 06-29-2005, 02:26 PM

sorry about the double post. I didn't mean to do that. My computer is acting up.

Inquartata · 06-29-2005, 03:24 PM

No. I fence sabre.

cornflower · 06-29-2005, 03:26 PM

You could do something to make them move their weapon arm out of the way, like a feint.

npkeith · 06-29-2005, 04:18 PM

My coaches technique is to hit the person in the hand... Off target in foil, won't even register in saber, valid touch in epee. Whatever. At most, after the second time (usually the first) people tend to pay attention to where that back hand is.

It (ahem) only took me once....

Zilverzmurfen · 06-29-2005, 04:19 PM

No, I fence épée.
If they want to get hit on their arm then that's fine by me.

RebelFencer · 06-29-2005, 04:20 PM

Um, telling the director and having him/her watch for that kind of thing?

parrythis · 06-29-2005, 04:30 PM

The original question refers specifically to the weapon arm.

My son is skinny as a rail and when he strikes a really good en-guard position, 90% of his foil target area is somewhere behind his weapon arm. Darn frustrating!

One thing you can do is focus on hits around the top of the shoulder. This requires pinpoint accuracy, but it gets your point to a target area not easily covered by the weapon arm.

Another thing you can do is to subtly shift your position on the piste to one side or the other. That will open up an angular view of the opponent's chest or back and give you a slight edge when trying to get around the arm. Be careful with this as you are opening up the same target on your body.

You can also try beats to get the arm to move out of the way. Small beat followed by thrust/lunge, or big beat and derobe the ensuing counter-beat then attack the target that opens when the arm moves out of the way.

keith · 06-29-2005, 04:31 PM

the other thing is to get them to extend the arm, hard for an extended arm to cover target - just a thought.

dekko · 06-29-2005, 04:53 PM

Last I checked there was no penalty for covering target with the weapon arm.

If the kid is thin enough to make it happen then he shoudl keep doing it, he may get some bruises but no penalty cards. On the other hand if he is spending all his time with this he won't have much to hit the opponent.

Welted 24/7 · 06-29-2005, 04:59 PM

When I fenced foil, it was still the old timings, so I'd just flick to the back of the shoulder, since they've so generously opened it up for me. Now, if somebody moves their weapon arm in front of their chest, I just sort of wonder what they're thinking as I crack them in the elbow.

Fencergrl · 06-29-2005, 05:00 PM

I love being short..... I tag the underside of the arm when some tall guy (everyone is taller than me) goes for a point... when they drop their arm I hit the top side for a while... when I get bored... there is toe touches and change ups in footwork... then back to wrist shots... I like being short....

Just mix it up... have some fun.

RebelFencer · 06-29-2005, 05:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dekko

Last I checked there was no penalty for covering target with the weapon arm.

If the kid is thin enough to make it happen then he shoudl keep doing it, he may get some bruises but no penalty cards. On the other hand if he is spending all his time with this he won't have much to hit the opponent.

Oh, whoops. When I hear/see "covering target," I assume it's done illegally. My mistake.

fencerchica · 06-29-2005, 05:27 PM

In a way, although it is with the weapon arm, isn't it the case that under some circumstances (referee's discretion) it can still be illegal to cover valid target with it?

My understanding is that "covering target" with the weapon arm is acceptable if there is reasonable cause to believe it's more or less accidental as an inevitable result of a parry motion, or if it's a result of a normal en guarde position. However, if it's grossly evident that the fencer is deliberately using the weapon arm to protect target area, doesn't this line in the USFA rule book come into play?

"In foil and saber, it is forbidden to protect the target area or to substitute another part of the body for the target area, either by covering or by an abnormal movement..."

keith · 06-29-2005, 05:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fencerchica

snip

However, if it's grossly evident that the fencer is deliberately using the weapon arm to protect target area, doesn't this line in the USFA rule book come into play?

"In foil and saber, it is forbidden to protect the target area or to substitute another part of the body for the target area, either by covering or by an abnormal movement..."

well I have seen and performed quite a few abnormal movements - contortions are sometimes required, especially for infighting. The trouble is that while covering with the back arm is easy to see (and blatant head parries get picked up by good refs) there is not an easily defined 'abnormal' position for the front arm.

After all if I attempt to parry quint I can cover up a fair bit of my target, especially if I am inclinded forward - how can I be penalized for trying to perform a legitimate blade action?

Best tactic is to try and draw these people out, be cautious as you attack and make sure you hit something when you attack. Oh and practice your point control to

fencerchica · 06-29-2005, 05:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by keith

well I have seen and performed quite a few abnormal movements - contortions are sometimes required, especially for infighting. The trouble is that while covering with the back arm is easy to see (and blatant head parries get picked up by good refs) there is not an easily defined 'abnormal' position for the front arm.

Heh, yeah I know! :-) I was really just arguing for argument's sake above; in fact, I've had the experience of a frustrated opponent futilely appealing to the director as to whether I was illegally covering target with the weapon arm. I'm currently working to correct a bad habit of kind of hunching over when executing parry 4 at close/infighting distance, and opponents who hit me with a close-range feint in my 4 disengaging to 6 will often tag me on the arm as I scrunch into the parry 4. I know that habit's really bad for lots of reasons, but at least their annoyance was satisfying sometimes. ;-)

keith · 06-29-2005, 06:02 PM

yep, thing with these kind of tactics - add in favourite trick/flash action as well as duck & cover - is that they can be briefly effective and so prevent you from learning the things you need to build into your game if you are really going to improve.

Why learn to manage distance and use prep to control the tempo of the phrase if you can waddle down the piste doing your best quasimodo impersonation and win a few bouts?

Anyway on the plus side once you have worked out one of these one trick fencers you can beat any of them. If you have someone with weird technique at the club, bout with them, work it out and file it away for when it comes useful in a competition.

ReverseLunge · 06-29-2005, 08:16 PM

You can do anything you want with the weapon arm. You can even parry with it.

remise · 06-30-2005, 08:12 AM

Well, this guy does scrunch forward, and he DOES take his weapon arm and bring it completely across his lame. It's frustrating. Like PARRYTHIS said, the only thing open is the shoulder.

MikeHarm · 06-30-2005, 08:26 AM

Usually when someone does target obscurring I just do a few feints at the non visual target to make sure its not a setup then if they're really just relying on obscurring for defense I start racking up the points with angulated actions to the non visual target area.

Just limiting yourself to the shoulder I think is bad tactically because they're looking for you to reach for that as the last visual target left, I usually prefer the outside lines hitting in the sides. They're stuck in the center obscurring so its easy to peg before they can reach your blade with a parry. If they do break their center covering to try to protect the outside once you harry them enough it reopens the center target to you.

I've noticed that its common for contortionist fencing styles where they desperately try to cover target the whole time they're fencing that you see the parries and footwork breaking down also.

It will be interesting to see what happens to the contortionist fencers if they go the route of making arm target. I'm expecting a lot of crazed posts about how it ruins fencing not being able to obscure target anymore lol.

On the head parry thing, I was in a team match once where one of the guys on my team tried to do a jumping attack, the lady he was fencing did a head parry trying to block it and ended up getting a knee to the head by accident. Ouch. I'd recommend against them because of that because I think they are dangerous to the fencers doing them.