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Thread: So what should it say?

  1. #1
    Senior Member Christopher J Umbs's Avatar
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    So what should it say?

    Hi all,

    Saw the thread about M. Lurz's page. Not my school/organization and I don't agree with it.

    I am starting to work on my own site though. Since I'll have to have at least a small bit about sport fencing on it... what would y'all like to see? What wouldn't be insulting? Just on first thought, I'd likely have something like this:

    "Sport Fencing is a pure sport. The participants of its highest levels are literally Olympic level athletes and the sport demands speed, timing and a keen sense of distance. Sport fencing is the skill of winning sport fencing tournaments. That is what the style is specialized for and if a particular tactic lacks martial viability but is effective rules wise, a good sport fencer will fence to the rules. Top competitive fencers say that trying to fence as if the blades were sharp is counterproductive to success in the sport."

  2. #2
    Senior Member veeco's Avatar
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    Why do you need to have something about olympic fencing?

    I don't think I like the terms "sport fencing". I feel it diminishes the fact that olympic fencing is as much a mental game as an athletic one.
    • Epee is the Louis Vuitton bag of fencing: only the best can get it, and the rest of the masses must content themselves with cheap knockoffs (sabre, foil)
    • To not recognize the power of the French grip is to be in denial

  3. #3
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    I agree with veeco, why does classical fencing have to define itself in opposition to sport fencing?

    I also find the 'as if they were sharp' obsession slightly creapy, but thats just me.

  4. #4
    Senior Member Mr Epee's Avatar
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    How about this?
    Quote Originally Posted by USFA Publicity
    Fencing, the art of swordsmanship, has been practiced for centuries. First it was to train for deadly combat - the duel. Now it is for Olympic Gold.

    Through fencing you can acquire the reflexes of a boxer, the legs of a high-jumper and the concentration of a tournament chess player. The sport develops agility, strength, speed and cunning. And because of the speed of its action, fencing is considered the fastest martial sport. But, most importantly, it's fun.
    btw... it's called fencing.
    Take your time. Read carefully.

  5. #5
    Senior Member Christopher J Umbs's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by veeco
    Why do you need to have something about olympic fencing?

    I don't think I like the terms "sport fencing". I feel it diminishes the fact that olympic fencing is as much a mental game as an athletic one.
    I need to say it, because the name of my school is the Umbs School of Fence and I don't teach sport fencing. I can either put a small explanation in or have to correct people on the phone repeatedly.

  6. #6
    Senior Member Mr Epee's Avatar
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    People are smarter than you give credit - they'll figure it out.

    And you don't know very much about business, if you think that you can avoid uninformed phone calls with little blurb on your site.
    Take your time. Read carefully.

  7. #7
    Senior Member veeco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Christopher J Umbs
    I need to say it, because the name of my school is the Umbs School of Fence and I don't teach sport fencing. I can either put a small explanation in or have to correct people on the phone repeatedly.
    So what? It's still fencing, yes? People who will call you are interested in fencing. Whether they are interested in your specific form of fencing or not is not something you can decide for them. Let them come, try it out, and if they like what you're doing with them, they will come back. If not, then they will try somewhere else.

    Another potential problem would be that you might attract olympic fencing style fencers who know they are looking for an olympic fencing club. There might be very few of them as most of them know where to look (the USFA's website, for instance) and those who do find your site will probably not need your blurb about olympic fencing to find out what you're doing is not what they are looking for.
    • Epee is the Louis Vuitton bag of fencing: only the best can get it, and the rest of the masses must content themselves with cheap knockoffs (sabre, foil)
    • To not recognize the power of the French grip is to be in denial

  8. #8
    Senior Member Christopher J Umbs's Avatar
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    Fine by me... I don't feel a huge need to mention sport fencing. I just have the feeling that if I don't, there's going to be some stupid thread here saying that I'm claiming to teach USFA or the like.

  9. #9
    Senior Member veeco's Avatar
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    I'll be sure to start that thread when the opportunity presents itself ;-)
    • Epee is the Louis Vuitton bag of fencing: only the best can get it, and the rest of the masses must content themselves with cheap knockoffs (sabre, foil)
    • To not recognize the power of the French grip is to be in denial

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    Don’t call modern fencing “sport fencing”
    That implies that fencing before the modern era wasn’t a sport, which it was.
    There was “sport fencing” in the 17-19c as well.
    Fencing is and has always been a sport. Using the term “sport” is redundant, like saying “sport swimming”

    Referring to modern fencing as “Olympic fencing” is also not correct.
    That implies that fencing in the Olympics is held under different rules or otherwise distinguished from the practice of the modern sport, or that fencing is only competed at in the Olympics. In the practice of the sport there’s no difference between “fencing” and “Olympic fencing”

    Either of the above definitions is misleading to the general public.

    If you want to explain a distinction between fencing styles, just call modern fencing what it is: “Modern Fencing”

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    If calling modern competitive fencing "sport fencing" is the easiest way to reduce confusion about what you do at your club then just do it. No need to nitpick about symantics here.

  12. #12
    Senior Member kalivor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thorin
    If calling modern competitive fencing "sport fencing" is the easiest way to reduce confusion about what you do at your club then just do it. No need to nitpick about symantics here.
    But nitpicking about semantics is what we do best!
    Last edited by kalivor; 06-28-2005 at 04:00 PM.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thorin
    If calling modern competitive fencing "sport fencing" is the easiest way to reduce confusion about what you do at your club then just do it. No need to nitpick about symantics here.
    Welcome to fencing.net

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Christopher J Umbs
    "Sport Fencing is a pure sport. The participants of its highest levels are literally Olympic level athletes and the sport demands speed, timing and a keen sense of distance. Sport fencing is the skill of winning sport fencing tournaments. That is what the style is specialized for and if a particular tactic lacks martial viability but is effective rules wise, a good sport fencer will fence to the rules. Top competitive fencers say that trying to fence as if the blades were sharp is counterproductive to success in the sport."
    That's perfectly fine. Don't worry about it.

  15. #15
    Senior Member jBirch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Christopher J Umbs
    Hi all,

    Saw the thread about M. Lurz's page. Not my school/organization and I don't agree with it.

    I am starting to work on my own site though. Since I'll have to have at least a small bit about sport fencing on it... what would y'all like to see? What wouldn't be insulting? Just on first thought, I'd likely have something like this:

    "Sport Fencing is a pure sport. The participants of its highest levels are literally Olympic level athletes and the sport demands speed, timing and a keen sense of distance. Sport fencing is the skill of winning sport fencing tournaments. That is what the style is specialized for and if a particular tactic lacks martial viability but is effective rules wise, a good sport fencer will fence to the rules. Top competitive fencers say that trying to fence as if the blades were sharp is counterproductive to success in the sport."
    Modern Sport Style is the sportif expression of classical fencing and has evolved unique techniques and tactics to exploit the exact same rules of fencing that the Umbs school teaches. It is generally fenced on longer pistes in a more movement oriented style then the technically oriented classical style we teach. It is the style fenced at the Olympic Games and uses an electical apparatus to determine the materiality of the touch, as opposed to the Judge and Jury system of adjudicating an assault that we teach. As such, it has unique intricacies that make fencing it markedly different from fencing in the Classical Style.

    Hope this helps.

    James.
    If it's stupid, but it works, it's not stupid.

  16. #16
    Senior Member achilleus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Christopher J Umbs
    Fine by me... I don't feel a huge need to mention sport fencing. I just have the feeling that if I don't, there's going to be some stupid thread here saying that I'm claiming to teach USFA or the like.

    I see two ways to go:

    1) Present your club and your fencing accurately, and don't even mention the variations in fencing.

    For example, check out this.

    They tell what they are, what they do, and it leaves no room for doubt.

    or:

    2) Have a section on your site titled, 'my kung fu is better than your kung fu.'

    Personally, having read your well thought out posts, I reccommend option 1.
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  17. #17
    Senior Member striker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Christopher J Umbs
    Fine by me... I don't feel a huge need to mention sport fencing. I just have the feeling that if I don't, there's going to be some stupid thread here saying that I'm claiming to teach USFA or the like.

    Chris, what weapons do you teach in your Salle? Is it only Rapier and
    Historical Fencing weapons or do you teach Classical Foil, Epee, and
    Saber also ?
    Last edited by striker; 06-28-2005 at 05:44 PM.
    "On the watch, sir. Always on the watch. They don't all fight like fine gentlemen!"

  18. #18
    Senior Member swordsen's Avatar
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    I can see the benefit of explaining the difference becasue it will keep peope interested in sport fencing (and I have no problem with that term or Olympic fencing) from coming in and getting upset when they aren't being offered what they thought they were after.
    Of course no matter how well you explain it someone will still get upset about it.
    If you give a man a fire, he is warm for the night.
    If you set a man on fire, he is warm for the rest of his life.

  19. #19
    Senior Member Epeecurean's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Christopher J Umbs
    I need to say it, because the name of my school is the Umbs School of Fence and I don't teach sport fencing. I can either put a small explanation in or have to correct people on the phone repeatedly.
    'Fencing' to the public means Olympic fencing. Since you are teaching fencing as a martial art and not a sport, perhaps you could re-dub your school as "The Umbs School of Swordsmanship".
    Have Sword - Will Travel

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    I was going to recommend this page at Salle Green (http://www.sallegreen.com/comparison.html) as a good reference point for a club which offers both classical and modern, but they seem to be having DNS issues ...

    Google the above URL and see if you can get the cached page. It's a nice example of a "tolerant" club.

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