Fencing.Net - Your Guide to Fencing & Fencing Equipment

Inquartata · 06-26-2005, 01:44 PM

Yes. And if one absolutely HAD to defend oneself with a sharp sword, I suspect there'd be a lot of grappling, kicking and throwing of objects having nothing to do with the nice formalities of classical fencing. We no longer have the social imperatives which formerly forced people to restrict themselves to "fair" practices even if it cost them their lives; the sun has long since set on the culture of honor above all else...

HDG · 06-26-2005, 02:23 PM

Let's grant arguendo that CF is "closer" to the "real" origins of swordplay and the duel than is what they sneeringly call "sport" fencing. So what? Maybe when I was 12 and I started fencing I had visions of dueling and swashbuckling, but since then, I've come to love the SPORT of fencing. Yes, it is a sport, and it is as a sport that I choose to dedicate time, money, sweat (lots of sweat) and sore muscles to fencing. It's not training for the duel; it's not a martial art, and I'm fine with that. I'm not training for a duel, and frankly neither are they.

Faulting fencing as it is practiced today for not meeting their romanticized, antiquarian norms is simply question-begging. Why are they the norm against which our sport is measured. They may be right that our sport doesn't train us to duel, or doesn't prepare us for the things the 16th - 18th c. schools did. Again, so what? Species, languages and human activities evolve; we evolved from training to sword fight; we aren't some degenerate, corrupt form of those activities. I don't begrudge CF'ers their activity, whether they consider it a sport, an art, or whatever, and as an aside, I have heard that training with a good CF maestro can do wonders for technique, but stop belittling us.

ReverseLunge · 06-26-2005, 02:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Inquartata

Yes. And if one absolutely HAD to defend oneself with a sharp sword, I suspect there'd be a lot of grappling, kicking and throwing of objects having nothing to do with the nice formalities of classical fencing. We no longer have the social imperatives which formerly forced people to restrict themselves to "fair" practices even if it cost them their lives; the sun has long since set on the culture of honor above all else...

I don't agree. Lets say I was in a bar and some drunk started $hit with me. Lets we didn't have swords but steak knives or lets say we both smashed our beer bottles on the bar and used them like knives. I don't think I would get wild or anything like that. Infact I would have the look of being quite calm. Come on...I'm a trained swordsman here! What I would do is keep distance with him and pick at his wrist (just like in the club) until he had enough and if he refused to stop then I would have to kill him with a shot to his throat. I am assuming the guy doesn't know how to fence so there is no way he could harm me with his sloppy slashing and there is not reason why I would have to throw away all my fencing training and resort to grappling or throwing things.

Katman · 06-26-2005, 05:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ReverseLunge

I don't agree. Lets say I was in a bar and some drunk started $hit with me. Lets we didn't have swords but steak knives or lets say we both smashed our beer bottles on the bar and used them like knives. I don't think I would get wild or anything like that. Infact I would have the look of being quite calm. Come on...I'm a trained swordsman here! What I would do is keep distance with him and pick at his wrist (just like in the club) until he had enough and if he refused to stop then I would have to kill him with a shot to his throat. I am assuming the guy doesn't know how to fence so there is no way he could harm me with his sloppy slashing and there is not reason why I would have to throw away all my fencing training and resort to grappling or throwing things.

Until his buddies grab you from behind or he rushes you, and pins you against a wall/the bar/whatever and starts going to town with his own weapon.

I love fencing and all and I'm sure there are some ways to apply it to a real-life senario, but I absolutely would not trust it to give me the advantage in a fight.

ReverseLunge · 06-26-2005, 07:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Katman

Until his buddies grab you from behind or he rushes you, and pins you against a wall/the bar/whatever and starts going to town with his own weapon.

I love fencing and all and I'm sure there are some ways to apply it to a real-life senario, but I absolutely would not trust it to give me the advantage in a fight.

Cetainly anything can happen. He could pull a gun on me or I might have more buddies there than he does. Lets just talk about a 1 on 1 situation since that's how we are trained as fencers and lets assume my opponent isn't trained in any art and all he can do is go into a hyper street fighting frenzy. Even if I didn't have a weapon still I have my speed, my footwork, my superior reflexes and my ability to close distance when the opening is there plus I have the element of surprise.

swordsen · 06-26-2005, 07:53 PM

I think the point being made is that it is almost never a 1 on 1 situation. In fact it never has been. If you actully look at the history of dueling in Europe as opposed to the mythology of dueling you will see that all of these nice formalities were alomst never followed. Your seconds came along to keep his seconds from ganging up on you in the fight and it often turned into a gang fight.

As for the non fencer not being able to hit you, well alot of beginers get lucky. With sharp objects you only need to get lucky once.

ReverseLunge · 06-26-2005, 08:44 PM

http://people.howstuffworks.com/duel.htm

Grasshopper · 06-26-2005, 09:59 PM

Once a classical fencer came to my club, too. He was about 25 years old, quite a big strong guy with a hefty build and long bleach blond hair in a ponytail. For some reason, he refused to take off his sunglasses even though we were inside. Appearances aside, I saw him warm up and do some footwork and it was obvious that he knew how to step forward back and lunge, so I thought we could have a decent bout. Anyway, once we were on the piste fencing foil, I realized that this guy was a complete hack. Anytime I would extend my arm and make a simple attack, he would respond with a giant, mechanical parry 4. Obviously, I disengaged five times and beat the guy 5-0 in about 20 seconds of stop time.

After I realized that I would be better challenged fencing my grandma, I unhooked and let some junior beginner high-school girls fence him. Well, after about 4 repeated thrashings from 15 year old girls, he finally unhooked for a rest and to lecture me on why his "art" is better. Saying stuff like "a real sword cuts to the bone" and "if I had a small dagger for my left hand...".

Where do these people come from? Anyway, we never saw him again.

ReverseLunge · 06-26-2005, 10:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grasshopper

After I realized that I would be better challenged fencing my grandma, I unhooked and let some junior beginner high-school girls fence him. Well, after about 4 repeated thrashings from 15 year old girls, he finally unhooked for a rest and to lecture me on why his "art" is better. Saying stuff like "a real sword cuts to the bone" and "if I had a small dagger for my left hand...".

Where do these people come from? Anyway, we never saw him again.

Did he borrow electric stuff from your club or did he bring his own? Was he using French or pistol?

Grasshopper · 06-26-2005, 10:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ReverseLunge

Did he borrow electric stuff from your club or did he bring his own? Was he using French or pistol?

He had his own stuff, french grip. He also had his collection of 3 real rapiers which he insisted on showing the high school students before the practice. You can imagine how good I felt about that...

ReverseLunge · 06-26-2005, 10:30 PM

That might have been me.

ReverseLunge · 06-26-2005, 10:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grasshopper

He had his own stuff, french grip. He also had his collection of 3 real rapiers which he insisted on showing the high school students before the practice. You can imagine how good I felt about that...

That might have been me.

Grasshopper · 06-26-2005, 10:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ReverseLunge

That might have been me.

Well then you suck.

noahz · 06-27-2005, 12:33 AM

I just bookmarked that page - he managed to collect some of my favorite fencing action shots!

Gav · 06-27-2005, 03:52 AM

ENOUGH! If neither of you has anything to say then don't say it.

ReverseLunge · 06-27-2005, 04:41 AM

The great whiteman from Scotland speaks. I listen and obey.

LUDICROUS · 06-27-2005, 05:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ReverseLunge

The great whiteman from Scotland speaks. I listen and obey.

RL is the man!

Zilverzmurfen · 06-27-2005, 05:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LUDICROUS

RL is the man!

No he isn't.

sabreur · 06-27-2005, 05:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Inquartata

Yes. And if one absolutely HAD to defend oneself with a sharp sword, I suspect there'd be a lot of grappling, kicking and throwing of objects having nothing to do with the nice formalities of classical fencing. We no longer have the social imperatives which formerly forced people to restrict themselves to "fair" practices even if it cost them their lives; the sun has long since set on the culture of honor above all else...

One version: http://home.att.net/~hofhine/Samurai.html

Another couple of examples: http://www.classicalfencing.com/articles/bloody.shtml

The second set of examples hardly seem to indicate a predeliction for "fair" practices. More like pure bloody mindedness.

MR

LUDICROUS · 06-27-2005, 05:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zilverzmurfen

No he isn't.

You do like to quite vocally voice your opposition to things, don't you?

No offense meant, agree to disagree.