A view of fencing.net

[Frank Pratt]

Originally Posted by Welted 24/7

Not to mention, more than one "I'm not a sabre fencer, but..." That's not "evidence", that's people who admit they aren't experts on the subject making comments. Now, if we were talking remarks like "I'm not a sabre fencer but you don't need to be to know that's bad footwork", THEN maybe there'd be a case here.

Well, "i'm not a sabre fencer" either, and even if I were, I'm sure Sada or any other member of our Olympic sabre team could kick my butt with either conventional or "odd" footwork, and with or without the screams. They don't fence epee (and probably are not even rated in epee,) but I wouldn't place any bets on my being able to beat them "on my turf." I give all elite fencers all the respect that they have earned. I don't see how even Aldo Nadi or Giorgio Santelli could critize the time, energy, blood and sweat these fine athletes have contributed to our sport.

[fencerontheline]

Yes, fencing is like any other sport, in that trash is often talked about people on the highest level, by 'couch quarterbacks'.

The one thing that sets this forum apart from most sports forums, is the same thing that makes us different from most sports... We are a relatively small community.

A sports 'star' like Michael Jordan will very rarely contribute his insight to an online basketball forum. On the other hand, on fencing.net, there are many world class fencers that no longer want to contribute, because they see, in writing, unjustified and uneducated opinions being formed and expressed about them and their fencing.

When they 'give up' on something like fencing.net, because nobody seems to learn anything from what they've written (which is often the case), then we as a community, lose a great deal of knowledge. I know of at least 2 world class fencers who refuse to post anything productive in the fencing discussion, because they've given up on it.

One of them has told me "the only time I go on now, is to insult people when they've said something really stupid or insulting". The other, just keeps to themselves in the watercooler and uses the site for purely entertainment value.

Do the elite athletes lose out when they forsake discussion? Or is it us who suffers?

[keith]

Originally Posted by fencerontheline

When they 'give up' on something like fencing.net, because nobody seems to learn anything from what they've written (which is often the case), then we as a community, lose a great deal of knowledge. I know of at least 2 world class fencers who refuse to post anything productive in the fencing discussion, because they've given up on it.

well on an anonymous board any statement beginning "When I was at the olympics......" is unlikely to get treated to seriously.

to be offended that someone does not treat your word as gospel would seem to disqualify you from most online fora - not just f.net. Such an attitude puts one in the budding egoist camp - which while an essential mindset for the serious elite athelete, also makes many of them worth avoiding.

Originally Posted by fencerontheline

One of them has told me "the only time I go on now, is to insult people when they've said something really stupid or insulting". The other, just keeps to themselves in the watercooler and uses the site for purely entertainment value.

okay - so they really have important things to say then.

Originally Posted by fencerontheline

Do the elite athletes lose out when they forsake discussion? Or is it us who suffers?

well as has been said anonymous forums have their rules - first is don't take part if you can't hack the bull**** and criticism and f.net really isn't that bad on that score (everyone has RL on ignore after all). Unless of course you are looking for self validation...........

[sabreur]

It may just be me, but it seems to me that there is something vaguely ungrateful about some of this discussion. As far as I know, Craig isn't making any money off of running this site, and he puts a lot of time and effort into it. Fencing.net isn't just the discussion forums--there is a lot of information available in other areas of the site, as well.

And Craig certainly does his part to try to raise the level of the discussions.

I agree that noise to signal ratio could be better, and there are a number of folks who would do better to consider the source of a post before they start expressing opposing viewpoints. I wish Bill Oliver would post more, but I think he's probably given up, because too many backwoods referees weigh in and post essentially that he is full of it--hard to keep fighting the good fight after awhile.

At the same time, most of us are pretty anonymous here, and it is hard to know for sure who someone is, other than by reading their stuff and making your own assessments. Maybe if the Olympic fencers would stand up and say who they are, people would pay a little more attention (probably not the people who need to, unfortunately ) There are a number of people (Ouiyt, peach, edew, for instance) I really respect on the board, who over time have revealed quite a bit about their credentials--but unfortunately, we don't run little tag lines with our signatures that say, "I'm a 47-year old who's been fencing sabre on and off since I was 19, and have been trained by two Hungarian masters and one Ukrainian. I win a fair number of veteran tournaments and can usually make the final of smaller opens. Etc., etc., etc."

It would also help if people showed a little internet etiquette. Doing things like searching to see if a topic has (flicks, shoes, yelling, etc.) been discussed recently, and what was said, would do wonders to clean up the noise-to-signal problem. It would also help if people actually read a number of threads before they started posting, so they had a sense of who actually appeared to know what they were talking about, before they started weighing in with random opinions.

As for the long-term resident trolls--well, that's what the ignore function is for. I can identify three types here--the classic troll, who is abusive regardless of the topic (only one example really springs to mind), the know-nothing know-it-all, who is sure that their interpretation of the rules, right-of-way, footwork, training methodology, etc., is correct, regardless of how many fairly experienced people voice opinions to the contrary (far too many of these, I'm afraid), and the (I do not include Chris Umbs in this category) classical fencer trolls, who interject their project into discussions about modern fencing, which according to their own statements has nothing to do with what they are doing.

Anyway, Craig, you have my vote. Thanks for what you do and all the hard work.

Regards, MR

[Craig]

Originally Posted by fencerontheline

On the other hand, on fencing.net, there are many world class fencers that no longer want to contribute, because they see, in writing, unjustified and uneducated opinions being formed and expressed about them and their fencing.

I know personally of only one, and that person was on the board for a few months a few years ago.

I would welcome some comments and ideas from these members of the fencing community. If they lurk here, then they should know how to contact me and we can discuss some ideas offline. If I don't know they are there, and I don't have any input from them, I can't really be expected to do anything to shape things...

Originally Posted by sabreur

I agree that noise to signal ratio could be better, and there are a number of folks who would do better to consider the source of a post before they start expressing opposing viewpoints. I wish Bill Oliver would post more, but I think he's probably given up, because too many backwoods referees weigh in and post essentially that he is full of it--hard to keep fighting the good fight after awhile.

That (noise to signal and attacks from "referees" who didn't know better) is why Bill and members of the FOC don't weigh in on rules discussions. When I have the time, I pose questions to them, get their feedback and push that into the discussion, but they grew tired of the flames that they received (when they are clearly identified as the expert!)

Feedback that I received from that group was to push more things into articles and get some other projects going for referee education. But, I'm not making my living off of Fencing.Net, so the time isn't there yet for all of the "great ideas" to pay out.

In time, I hope to have more things here of value to all levels of the fencing community. In the meantime, I welcome comments suggestions and criticisms - If you want to make sure that I'm reading them, then email me: craig at fencing.net
Thanks,
Craig

[mrbiggs]

Originally Posted by fencerontheline

Yes, fencing is like any other sport, in that trash is often talked about people on the highest level, by 'couch quarterbacks'.

The one thing that sets this forum apart from most sports forums, is the same thing that makes us different from most sports... We are a relatively small community.

A sports 'star' like Michael Jordan will very rarely contribute his insight to an online basketball forum. On the other hand, on fencing.net, there are many world class fencers that no longer want to contribute, because they see, in writing, unjustified and uneducated opinions being formed and expressed about them and their fencing.

When they 'give up' on something like fencing.net, because nobody seems to learn anything from what they've written (which is often the case), then we as a community, lose a great deal of knowledge. I know of at least 2 world class fencers who refuse to post anything productive in the fencing discussion, because they've given up on it.

One of them has told me "the only time I go on now, is to insult people when they've said something really stupid or insulting". The other, just keeps to themselves in the watercooler and uses the site for purely entertainment value.

Do the elite athletes lose out when they forsake discussion? Or is it us who suffers?

Athletes, no matter what their success, should not be considered untouchable in terms of criticism, for two reasons. First, criticizing very good athletes is a part of sport, period. Even uneducated criticism, as frustrating as it may be for the successful athletes, has to be accepted. It's part of the job. Second, no athlete is perfect. I distincly remember Achilleus, in a thread a few months ago, mentioning that though he has worked on his lunge for years, he still would never consider it "perfect." No athlete is perfect, and therefore, there is some part of their game that can be criticized.

It's a real bummer that so many good fencers don't come on this site anymore. But I think it's a lame excuse that they've "given up" on it. If they have the credentials, and they're frustrated about the lack of respect, then they should make their credentials known, state their opinion, and that's it. Of course there are people here too stupid to listen to the informed opinions, but that's their loss. On the internet, there is, unfortunately, far too much disrespect of informed opinions. This is a simple result of the anonymity the internet provides. But good fencers that fail to share their knowledge doesn't help anyone. And neither does, in my opinion, this thread.

[Schiavona]

I was away from fencing and coaching for about 4 years while dealing with some family medical problems. Last year I stumbled onto F.net and was able not only to catch up on what's been happening in fencing (quite a lot in those 4 years), but to be more up to date than those who kept fencing in my local area. I've been able to make contacts that I wouldn't have been able to otherwise. I can't begin to express how valuable I think F.net is as a resource, especially to us on the fringes.

I'm sorry that those elite fencers aren't getting the respect they deserve. I respect Achillieus and Mr. Epee for their obvious competitive expirence. Their focus and expirence is far different than mine-that's why my opinions are often different, but I learn from their opinions.

Craig, thank you so very much for F.net!

[Inquartata]

Originally Posted by fencerontheline

Very few people on this website have respect for these high calibur athletes. In fact, it seems like many people resent these 'elite competitors'.

What? I haven't seen much of this at all. What leads you to this conclusion?

[achilleus]

Originally Posted by mrbiggs

Athletes, no matter what their success, should not be considered untouchable in terms of criticism, for two reasons. First, criticizing very good athletes is a part of sport, period. Even uneducated criticism, as frustrating as it may be for the successful athletes, has to be accepted. It's part of the job. Second, no athlete is perfect. I distincly remember Achilleus, in a thread a few months ago, mentioning that though he has worked on his lunge for years, he still would never consider it "perfect." No athlete is perfect, and therefore, there is some part of their game that can be criticized.

It's a real bummer that so many good fencers don't come on this site anymore. But I think it's a lame excuse that they've "given up" on it. If they have the credentials, and they're frustrated about the lack of respect, then they should make their credentials known, state their opinion, and that's it. Of course there are people here too stupid to listen to the informed opinions, but that's their loss. On the internet, there is, unfortunately, far too much disrespect of informed opinions. This is a simple result of the anonymity the internet provides. But good fencers that fail to share their knowledge doesn't help anyone. And neither does, in my opinion, this thread.

People with busy schedule's tend to be turned off by the fact that people here will argue over whether the sky is blue...

[mrbiggs]

Originally Posted by achilleus

People with busy schedule's tend to be turned off by the fact that people here will argue over whether the sky is blue...

I completely understand that, but those aren't the threads they should be posting in. Of course people are going to argue. The title of the forum is "fencing discussion." But those threads are for fun, and 99% of what is said in them doesn't matter at all to anyone.

But then there are threads about high level strategies and techniques, which are not very numerous, and which would be greatly assisted by high-level fencers posting to them.

[achilleus]

Originally Posted by mrbiggs

I completely understand that, but those aren't the threads they should be posting in. Of course people are going to argue. The title of the forum is "fencing discussion." But those threads are for fun, and 99% of what is said in them doesn't matter at all to anyone.

But then there are threads about high level strategies and techniques, which are not very numerous, and which would be greatly assisted by high-level fencers posting to them.

Right, but when some high level fencing is seen, all that gets posted is:

They're noisy!
They just whip their blades?
That's ugly, why would they do that?
How can refs give that the attack?

Or my personal favorite:
what ugly footwork.

It's difficult to discuss the same thing over and over when so many people are focused on the same obvious banal things.

Like, would anyone really listen if told, good footwork isn't about looks, but effectiveness? I've said it before. I've quoted my definition of good technique on this board way too many times, yet people still look at a world class competitor (in a weapon where footwork is the main weapon) and say 'what ugly footwork'. Obviously, since she just beat the #1, we should be able to extrapolate that she's doing something right....

*end rant*

[Peach]

I've been in other situations (other message boards on other subjects) where I've been the "elite" member, and I have to say the downsides of posting tend to massively outweigh the upsides. People react very weirdly to celebrities. Sometimes they like to argue with (and complain about) experts and top achievers just for the sense of self-importance it gives them. And some people can be a little scary about it--even for quite minor celebrities in minor areas.

Although people often think they know how they'll feel about being a celebrity, and view it as an uncomplicated blessing, the reality can be quite annoying

[Inquartata]

Perhaps we need a 20% cut to get rid of those posters who the "good posters" feel are "bad posters" and are just bringing down the level of the discussion...


By the way---the sky isn't blue. Our optic nerves and brains merely perceive the light wavelengths to give the atmosphere that appearance.

[glowstix]

Originally Posted by fencerontheline

Yes, fencing is like any other sport, in that trash is often talked about people on the highest level, by 'couch quarterbacks'.

The one thing that sets this forum apart from most sports forums, is the same thing that makes us different from most sports... We are a relatively small community.

A sports 'star' like Michael Jordan will very rarely contribute his insight to an online basketball forum. On the other hand, on fencing.net, there are many world class fencers that no longer want to contribute, because they see, in writing, unjustified and uneducated opinions being formed and expressed about them and their fencing.

When they 'give up' on something like fencing.net, because nobody seems to learn anything from what they've written (which is often the case), then we as a community, lose a great deal of knowledge. I know of at least 2 world class fencers who refuse to post anything productive in the fencing discussion, because they've given up on it.

One of them has told me "the only time I go on now, is to insult people when they've said something really stupid or insulting". The other, just keeps to themselves in the watercooler and uses the site for purely entertainment value.

Do the elite athletes lose out when they forsake discussion? Or is it us who suffers?

not that i'm defending anyone (and i myself have not said anything insulting) but its not like the typical forum member knows who the "elite athletes" are on here anyway...its all anonymous as others have pointed out, we have user names not our real names and even if we did, you still can't know for sure. if someone knew for sure it was dan kellner, you don't think they'd take that post just a bit more seriously?? i for one, don't know of any elite fencers on here..i know we have some great fencers on here and i respect their opinions and whatever they write usually.

...and the fact that your "elite" friend only comes on to insult is disgraceful considering that he could contribute more positively; instead he chooses that route..

[achilleus]

Originally Posted by glowstix

...and the fact that your "elite" friend only comes on to insult is disgraceful considering that he could contribute more positively; instead he chooses that route..

Not that I'm defending anybody here, but some people are asking for it.

[glowstix]

Originally Posted by achilleus

Not that I'm defending anybody here, but some people are asking for it.

i know some people are asking for it but the point was, of all the great info and advice they could give they choose to contribute in that way. i for one, and others i'm sure, would definitely appreciate anything they'd have to say. its not that difficult to ignore the stupidity on here..matter of fact, thats the best way to deal with it.

[mrbiggs]

Originally Posted by achilleus

Right, but when some high level fencing is seen, all that gets posted is:

They're noisy!
They just whip their blades?
That's ugly, why would they do that?
How can refs give that the attack?

Or my personal favorite:
what ugly footwork.

It's difficult to discuss the same thing over and over when so many people are focused on the same obvious banal things.

Like, would anyone really listen if told, good footwork isn't about looks, but effectiveness? I've said it before. I've quoted my definition of good technique on this board way too many times, yet people still look at a world class competitor (in a weapon where footwork is the main weapon) and say 'what ugly footwork'. Obviously, since she just beat the #1, we should be able to extrapolate that she's doing something right....

*end rant*

That's completely understandable. I think alot of those comments are more interrogative than critical. If you (or anyone else high level) doesn't want to comment on those threads, it's really easy to see why. (Although it's awesome if someone in the know does.)

BUT, I still don't see the informed opinion of olympians being regularly beaten down by a horde of uninformed scrubs. I just don't.

[SmokeyTheCat263]

Originally Posted by mrbiggs

First, criticizing very good athletes is a part of sport, period. Even uneducated criticism, as frustrating as it may be for the successful athletes, has to be accepted. It's part of the job.

Originally Posted by mrbiggs

But good fencers that fail to share their knowledge doesn't help anyone.

Why should elite athletes share their knowledge when all we do is criticize them? Perhaps this is why Fencerontheline's two elite fencer friends have retired from fnet.
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