Women's Sabre Video Clip

[Craig]

OK - First time I posted using the attachment system and it didn't work.

Last week I got a nice package in the mail of some footage from 2005 Women's Sabre world cups. I'm cutting up some of it to be clips to show here, but I have to manage on the bandwidth and space.

This clip is from a bout in Austria of Sada Jacobson vs. Becca Ward. The clip is about a minute in length during the 1st period of fencing.

Link: Women's Sabre Video Clip (approx 7MB)

Cheers,
Craig

[prototoast]

Oh man, that screaming is... uh... intense.

[Welted 24/7]

Jesus christ. Normally I don't mind yelling, since I tend to do it too, but seriously, that was just PAINFUL. Literally. I cringed in pain at one point at her shrieking. Was that all Ward? I didn't notice Sada screaming like that...or even really showing any reaction, for that matter. I guess it's just a matter of maturity. Ward is what, all of 15? 15 year olds are loud and obnoxious enough as it is without being fencers on top of it.

Who won that, by the way?

[prototoast]

Originally Posted by Welted 24/7

Jesus christ. Normally I don't mind yelling, since I tend to do it too, but seriously, that was just PAINFUL. Literally. I cringed in pain at one point at her shrieking. Was that all Ward? I didn't notice Sada screaming like that...or even really showing any reaction, for that matter. I guess it's just a matter of maturity. Ward is what, all of 15? 15 year olds are loud and obnoxious enough as it is without being fencers on top of it.

Who won that, by the way?

Yeah, that was all Becca Ward screaming.

[afc fencer]

Originally Posted by Welted 24/7

Jesus christ. Normally I don't mind yelling, since I tend to do it too, but seriously, that was just PAINFUL. Literally. I cringed in pain at one point at her shrieking. Was that all Ward? I didn't notice Sada screaming like that...or even really showing any reaction, for that matter. I guess it's just a matter of maturity. Ward is what, all of 15? 15 year olds are loud and obnoxious enough as it is without being fencers on top of it.

Who won that, by the way?

Becca won.

[Craig]

Ward won that bout in the round of 16 and took 2nd in the competition, losing to Zagunis in the final.

It really looks like Ward was juiced up for the match and really into it. If I were up against the #1 ranked fencer in the world and emotion was working for me I'd be using it as much as possible.

Haven't watched all of this bout yet, nor have I gotten to watch the bout of Ward vs. Tan which will be very interesting to watch as I remember the score being lopsided in Ward's favor.

Craig

[noodle]

Originally Posted by Craig

Ward won that bout in the round of 16 and took 2nd in the competition, losing to Zagunis in the final.

It really looks like Ward was juiced up for the match and really into it. If I were up against the #1 ranked fencer in the world and emotion was working for me I'd be using it as much as possible.

Haven't watched all of this bout yet, nor have I gotten to watch the bout of Ward vs. Tan which will be very interesting to watch as I remember the score being lopsided in Ward's favor.

Craig

ward screamed a lot at chatanooga when she fenced a quiet sada there, too. lost, though.

[Fencing Mom]

What the heck - is there nothing else to comment on other than Becca screams? Maybe the females reading this board should consider ourselves lucky - it could have been "Becca sure does have an annoying scream, and by the way (deepest voice possible, here,) do you wear a cup?"

[Sabresque]

I believe she beat Tan 15-4 that time.

[Craig]

Originally Posted by Fencing Mom

What the heck - is there nothing else to comment on other than Becca screams?

I was thinking this also.

This is the #20 (or 21) in the WORLD vs. #1 in the WORLD!

Any commentary on the distance? Feints used to provoke the final attack that allows for the use of a quick retreat to make the attack fall short?

Use of footwork tempo to win a touch?

Use of various parry/riposte tactics? Any evidence of the new sabre timings giving a quick remise the touch over an attempted riposte? Any evidence of a stop hit to the arm causing a one-light against what looked like a good attack?

How can you use the tactics and footwork shown in this clip to better your fencing?

Or do you only care about if the fencer is loud?

[mackillian]

I was watching all of that, but I really can't comment a ton on it because I don't fence saber. I DO recall thinking it was awesome to watch and wanted a better view as they were small and hard to see blade movements.

However, the first thing that DID come to mind was "Holy crap, that's a piercing scream." Now, male or females competing in that, I would've had the same thought.

I also thought "What must it be like to be fencing the #1 fencer in the world? And get a touch, much less MORE than one. How COOL."

[D+F+P=Hadouken!]

Originally Posted by Craig

I was thinking this also.

This is the #20 (or 21) in the WORLD vs. #1 in the WORLD!

Any commentary on the distance? Feints used to provoke the final attack that allows for the use of a quick retreat to make the attack fall short?

Use of footwork tempo to win a touch?

Use of various parry/riposte tactics? Any evidence of the new sabre timings giving a quick remise the touch over an attempted riposte? Any evidence of a stop hit to the arm causing a one-light against what looked like a good attack?

How can you use the tactics and footwork shown in this clip to better your fencing?

Or do you only care about if the fencer is loud?

honestly craig, I wasnt that impressed with the footwork of either the fencers. Sure, its better than my saber fencing... but it looks ugly.

[telkanuru]

AFAIK, the feints to draw out the attack/lull the opponent for the hit in prep is definitely nothing new, and also completely expected. The sabre coach at my club teaches this technique. There was also much use of the quick-slow advance sequence on the attack, which is also (in my mind) expected.

I saw the technique of deliberately finishing an attack short to set up a one-light remise used once (succesfully). I don't really have a problem with this action (some see it as an abuse of the new timings), but then again, I'm an epeeist Actually, my first impression was that the whole thing looked slightly more epee-like, but I'm not really sure why.

[whtouche]

All the other technical stuff aside - I don't know what bout everyone else was watching, but when I clicked on the clip I expected ear-splitting insanity.
The screaming was NOT excessive, people. Anyone who thinks it is, or that it's out of the ordinary, needs to go to ANY national tournament. It wasn't excessively loud, or prolonged. The only thing of note is how high pitched it is, but I don't think that's on purpose.

I was expecting 5 second stomp around celebrations after every touch after reading this thread. Mountains out of mole hills anyone?

[Peach]

I had the sound turned off when I watched it, and was impressed with the composure of both fencers--funny thing, that.

[oso97]

Hrmmm... there's an interesting thought, turning the sound off.

You know, I always bring earplugs with me to national tournaments because I never know if the referee I'm assigned to room with will snore or not. Maybe I should wear them to referee too..... But then I'd have problems hearing the box I presume.

[sabreur]

Nice counter with opposition by Sada at about the mid-point of the clip. One attempt by Sada to take a seconde where she would have done better to withdraw her arm and let Ward finish short--Ward is clearly out of distance in this action. Overall, Sada looks a little sluggish--she loses one touch because she pumps her arm, and another when she chases Ward to the end of the strip, but hesitates and allows the one-light counter rather than accelerating and finishing Ward off... Of course, it is easy to quarterback from my seat in front of a CRT.

Hard to read a lot of the actions because of the camera angle. I couldn't figure out why Ward got the first touch until I watched it frame by frame--it looks like she's already started her lunge while Sada still has her front foot flat on the floor.

Still can't parse the final action--it looks to me like attack from Jacobson, counter attack by Ward, but Ward apparently got the touch.

I've never seen Ward fence in person, but I know that Sada's footwork is very sophisticated--you can sort of pick up the broken rhythm in the clip, but it is hard--I think because there is so much happening between frames that you sort of have to guess at.

The faked counter-attack to get the other guy to finish short may be a commonly taught tactic, but it is hard to sell to a decent sabreur--you have to shorten the distance, make the fake, then get back out of distance. Easy to conceptualize, but it requires very good distance, tempo and a lot of leg strength in practice.

Again, it is hard to see on the clip, but there are a lot of faked counters, attempts to take the blade, etc. Both fencers are very active on defense, which is typical of modern sabre, yet rely in the end on getting out of distance at the right moment, which is also typical of modern sabre.

My $.02--cheap at twice the price.

[Feltan]

I have to say that I was a bit disappointed. I guess when watching that level of fencing, I expect to see something special.

To me, it was not special. Nothing more than you would see in the finals of any medium sized tournament. No blazing speed; no form or style that you would wish to emulate -- I was left with the impression that these two were probably fast and the best at hacking among the competitors.

Is this the style of fencing that the FIE wishes to promote by changing the timings? As a fencer, I don't find it entertaining at all, maybe a non-fencer would think it is cool. I concur with the previous comment that saber is starting to look more like epee -- at least with regard to strategy -- just get a hit in as fast as you can and screw any concept of right-of-way.

Regards,
Feltan

[whtouche]

Feltan,
Judging by your response I would guess you haven't seen that much high level sabre to be surprised as you are.
What kindof things did you expect? Blazing speed? Why? So they could go as fast as they can and get hit in preparation?
The difference between elite level competitiors and everyone else is not some combination of speed and secret moves. It's a solid technical foundation (which I can guarantee you that these two have more so than anyone else you've seen fence) and an incredibly accute sense of distance and timing. It doesn't look special to you because at any crappy tournament you can see two people with decent form and about evenly matched on distance and timing. No doubt their bout would look pretty similar to that. But the difference is that the level is much higher, in that if you took one of those people from that crappy tournament with decent distance and timing, they would not be able to hit or escape from either of these two. It's like watching a great pitcher pitching to a great hitter. It might look similar to a decent pitcher pitching to a decent hitter. But you put that great hitter up against that decent pitcher, or that great pitcher up against that decent hitter and the outcome is totally different.

The other difference is the deep mental game. On video alot of these actions look like things that happened when something didn't work. But did you ever consider that a first action may intentionally fail in order to set up a second? Ad infinitum.

[jBirch]

I didn't see too much to be impressed with. In fact, I was astonished at that simple swipe Sada attempted on about the 4th point when the distance got close as a defensive measure. Then no follow up. She just walked down to the end of the piste and Ward hit her with a tempo change, the same action she scored with previously. What was she thinking?

That last point, Sada withheld her arm and Ward started first. It was a habit she did a couple of times in the bout.

Sada seemed to not care and her mind was definitely somewhere else. Her feet started, then the arm. Her distance was just screwy and she advanced carelessly. If I was her coach, I'd kick her in the arse. Definitely lazy.

James.