Women's Sabre Video Clip

[Peach]

Hmmm. . . lucky you're not her coach, then, because she's one of the most hard-working people I know.

[jBirch]

Originally Posted by Peach

Hmmm. . . lucky you're not her coach, then, because she's one of the most hard-working people I know.

Well then, what was going on on that strip?

James.

[Peach]

What was going on? Injury? Exhaustion? Brain death? You can't tell from a videotape.

[prototoast]

Originally Posted by Peach

What was going on? Injury? Exhaustion? Brain death? You can't tell from a videotape.

Not to mention some people just have off days. I know when I'm fencing I certainly have days when my timing, distance, etc. just feels all off. I wouldn't say it's because I'm being lazy. Something just isn't working that day, no matter how hard I try. Then I have other days when I don't feel like I'm trying at all, but everything just works right.
Heck, she might be trying too hard. Thinking too much to overcome her mistakes, but unfortunately, it's only making things worse.

[jBirch]

Originally Posted by Peach

What was going on? Injury? Exhaustion? Brain death? You can't tell from a videotape.

No, I can't.

I can tell that she seems behind the action frequently, she seems to not be thinking clearly and she doesn't seem to be really going for the touches. She seems to be underestimating Ward and not fencing her with all of her ability. Granted, I'm not her coach, don't know her, and in fact, this is the first time I've seen a clip of her. Granted this is my perception of the clip posted.

That said, if she is as good as is rumoured, then it was not on display in this clip. Given that she could be a lot better and that her motions seemed careless and sluggish I concluded that it was not lack of ability. Why could she be exhausted? Party too much? Then it goes back to motivation and needing a kick. Up all night worrying? Possible, but unlikely in a fencer of her calibre and experience. What injury? She seemed in fine health to me. Brain death? Maybe, but fencers should be above that kind of problem. Maybe she was just thinking that its a poule bout and nobody really cares.

Her actions left me with the impression that she didn't so much care for fencing Ward for whatever reason. If so, definitely time for a motivational re-adjustment. She may fence from dawn to dusk, do a million push-ups a day and strive to be amazing all the time. And that's great. It doesn't change the perception I had that she was lazy during this particular bout nor that, were she a fencer of mine and acting this way, I'd be annoyed at her for doing that and work to motivate her to do better.

James.

[noodle]

its not a rumor that she's good.
she has the world cup and olympic medals along with the fie ranking to prove it.

does it matter what was wrong with her fencing? she doesn't need to answer to people on an online forum about what she was thinking or feeling. she didn't deserve to win that bout and so she didn't. it happens.

[jBirch]

Originally Posted by noodle

its not a rumor that she's good.
she has the world cup and olympic medals along with the fie ranking to prove it.

Thanks Noodle.

does it matter what was wrong with her fencing? she doesn't need to answer to people on an online forum about what she was thinking or feeling. she didn't deserve to win that bout and so she didn't. it happens.

I didn't ask her to answer anything. In fact, I think all I did was post my impression of the match in question. The only possible point of contention was when I said that she seemed lazy in this match. Do you disagree? If so, why?

James.

[noodle]

point of contention is the fact that the way you generalized about her skills based on the short clip.

she didn't fence as well as she could there, clearly. if she did, she would've won, because she is capable of doing so.

[Be_Like_Water]

I think the angle of the clip made it difficult for me to see the subtleties of this bout, but I was also not overly impressed. Since I am not a sabre fencer, I looked for the changes in tempo, timing, and general footwork; while the timing generally was good (as expected from such high level fencers), I did not see explosive tempo changes and the footwork seemed sloppy at best, and at worst, ineffective. Ms. Jacobson's feet seem to move well, but Ward's I would say without hesitation are clumsy and awkward, from her en garde position to her lunge.

That having been said, she won the bout, so I suppose it doesn't matter except for the spectators, who may comment on her footwork being ugly as sin.

[downunder]

i bet her footwork is considerably better than yours.

Her footwork seems to be good enough to be winning medals at the highest level.

[Sabresque]

Originally Posted by whtouche

Feltan,
Judging by your response I would guess you haven't seen that much high level sabre to be surprised as you are.
What kindof things did you expect? Blazing speed? Why? So they could go as fast as they can and get hit in preparation?
The difference between elite level competitiors and everyone else is not some combination of speed and secret moves. It's a solid technical foundation (which I can guarantee you that these two have more so than anyone else you've seen fence) and an incredibly accute sense of distance and timing. It doesn't look special to you because at any crappy tournament you can see two people with decent form and about evenly matched on distance and timing. No doubt their bout would look pretty similar to that. But the difference is that the level is much higher, in that if you took one of those people from that crappy tournament with decent distance and timing, they would not be able to hit or escape from either of these two. It's like watching a great pitcher pitching to a great hitter. It might look similar to a decent pitcher pitching to a decent hitter. But you put that great hitter up against that decent pitcher, or that great pitcher up against that decent hitter and the outcome is totally different.

The other difference is the deep mental game. On video alot of these actions look like things that happened when something didn't work. But did you ever consider that a first action may intentionally fail in order to set up a second? Ad infinitum.

Nice commentary touche. These two fencers have been battling the last few turnaments against each other. When you put up two good fencers that (key phrase here) know each other VERY well the bout tends to simplify instead of get more complicated. Like whtouche said, both their technique is great, and so is the amount of actions each can use well. This doesn't mean they're going to shoBecca tends to attack short on the guard. This is not all mistake, she oftentimes ends her attack in order to take advantage of her best asset, her defense and sense of timing. Especially with the new timings. You see this a lot in the video. Sada, when chasing her patiently down the strip is waiting for the right moment to attack and make becca's action a simple counter attack. Her "swipe" was a good idea that just didn't happen on that touch. especially with the new timings, which don't allow for a slow reposte. As you see, while both girls had good ideas in their actions sometimes the actual physical touch didn't happen in the end. The difference is miniscule but puts Sada back.

[Peach]

I'm a competent fencer and I'm thrilled to get a touch on either of them in a pool bout (I've fenced both). Their distance, timing, and bladework are extraordinary (not to mention the explosiveness of their lunges). I've watched Sada give Ivan Lee a run for his money at a Liberty Cup. Women's sabre at that level tends not to be showy, and is based on small variations in timing and distance, setting up actions with footwork. Becca's club emphasizes a smoother, more fluid-looking style and Sada's club emphasizes smaller, tighter footwork.

Although I watch videos with interest, I inevitably find that the complexities I see in person don't translate well. I do, however, know both fencers, which was why I disagreed with you, James. You speculated that Sada looked lazy from the videotape, and I happen to know that's not true.

[jBirch]

Originally Posted by noodle

point of contention is the fact that the way you generalized about her skills based on the short clip.

she didn't fence as well as she could there, clearly. if she did, she would've won, because she is capable of doing so.

I think I miscommunicated then because we're definitely on the same wavelength. Where did I generalise? I thought I said her coach should kick her in the arse because she was being lazy in this match. I did not mean to imply that she is a lazy individual.

James.

[sabreman]

I am staying out of this. Where is Mo? LOL!

[jBirch]

Although I watch videos with interest, I inevitably find that the complexities I see in person don't translate well. I do, however, know both fencers, which was why I disagreed with you, James. You speculated that Sada looked lazy from the videotape, and I happen to know that's not true.

I confess that I have never fenced either of these ladies so I truly only can comment on what I saw in the video. I'm familiar with upper level sabre and can see past showy to fine technique. Sada's polish, for instance, shows clearly to me in this clip. She just seemed behind everything and off tactically. I truly do think that she wasn't totally "in" this game. What do you see when you watch this video?

Can you walk me through the actions and tell me what I missed? Without the benefit of the calls, I'm guessing here on what the ref actually awarded.

The first action, for example, is a straight attack by both fencers. Ward just goes for it and is a little quicker off the mark. I think it's her point. Sada seems caught a little flat-footed. No matter.

Second action, Sada is smarter, she advances looking for a parry riposte but Ward doesn't give it to her. Sada takes over the action after the pause and attacks to the upper arm. Ward attempts a stop cut to the arm and both hit. I think it's point Sada or maybe simultaneous.

Third action, Ward attacks with an advance lunge short, looking to draw an attack from Sada. Sada, wisely, doesn't play but is caught making a big move backwards. She recovers and takes over the action. Ward retreats like crazy and manages to just stay out of range as Sada turns up the heat. Sada makes a big lunge, falls short, and waits for Ward to advance. Sada is doing nothing while Ward regains her balance and sets up her attack, closing out Sada's preferred outside high attack line by moving to the left side of the piste. Ward with a HUGE lunge and Sada scampers back, moving quick but in good balance. The game shifts back and Sada takes the action advancing cautiously down the piste. Ward tries a couple of delaying actions, but nothing serious. Sada dominates the distance and pushes Ward toward the back of the piste. As Ward gets close to the end of the piste, however, Sada keeps right on advancing and Ward starts an attack of her own that hits a kinda stunned Sada. Sada is obviously not pleased. Point Ward 2-1

Fourth action, Ward advances aggressively and launches an attack. Sada backs it up and takes a swipe at the recovering Ward, but misses. She then, again, lets Ward get her feet back under her and starts a march down the piste. Ward, close to the end of the strip, does an attack and gets the hit. Same action as last time. I'm not sure if Sada misses the attack, or it's a two light thing.Point Ward 3-1.

Fifth action, Sada and Ward advance together, Sada launches a little attack while Ward is moving backward, Ward turns the corner and launches a HUGE advance lunge. Sada, nicely, AIP, with a swipe across Ward's helmet. One light (definitely a result of the new timings). Point Sada 3-2. I didn't see an opposition here, but I think this is the action that Sabreur commented on. This is Sada's best reaction, IMHO.

Sixth action, Ward advance lunge with hand held low in absense right off the mark. Sada tries a parry but Ward hits the arm. Point Ward 4-2

Seventh action. Sada throws a quick counter out there to get Ward to slow down. Ward bites. Sada does a short attack to the inside line then follows up with a change of line back to the outside like a snake. Ward looks for the parry, there is none and then counter-attacks. Two lights, Sada's point 4-3.

Eigth action, Ward does an advance lunge and hits. Sada has the advance, pauses, then lunges and hits. Simultaneous.

Ninth and final action, Sada does an advance lunge off the mark, Ward does an advance lunge kinda hesitently but Sada does this big sweeping movement with her blade on the advance and I think Ward starts her arm first. Two lights, Ward's AIP. 5-3.

All through these actions, Sada seems a little slow, a little more cautious and a little more behind the flow. I agree with Sabreur's assessment that she seems sluggish and, for someone of her ability, I can only conjecture why that is.

Take it easy.

James.

[prototoast]

I'm no expert, but quite a few of your assesments seem to be WAY off. I'll only comment on the most flagrant ones (in my opinion). I also object to your mixing of first names and last names (Sada vs Ward), and since Jacobson is too many letters, I'll just use their first names.

Originally Posted by jBirch

Second action, Sada is smarter, she advances looking for a parry riposte but Ward doesn't give it to her. Sada takes over the action after the pause and attacks to the upper arm. Ward attempts a stop cut to the arm and both hit. I think it's point Sada or maybe simultaneous.

I see no way that could possibly be simultaneous. I'd probably call it Becca's attack in prep, though giving Sada the attack isn't out of the question--but either her attack in prep is in time or it isn't. It can't be simultaneous.

Fourth action, Ward advances aggressively and launches an attack. Sada backs it up and takes a swipe at the recovering Ward, but misses. She then, again, lets Ward get her feet back under her and starts a march down the piste. Ward, close to the end of the strip, does an attack and gets the hit. Same action as last time. I'm not sure if Sada misses the attack, or it's a two light thing.Point Ward 3-1.

To me, that definitely looks like Sada finishes her attack and gets the touch. I can't see the lights, but I see no reason to believe she missed, and Becca's

Seventh action. Sada throws a quick counter out there to get Ward to slow down. Ward bites. Sada does a short attack to the inside line then follows up with a change of line back to the outside like a snake. Ward looks for the parry, there is none and then counter-attacks. Two lights, Sada's point 4-3.

To me, that definitely looks like Sada's attack misses, Becca's counter and Sada's remise.

It's not the best angles (especially since it's hard to see Sada's hand), but some of your interpretations seem to be quite a bit off.

[D+F+P=Hadouken!]

Originally Posted by D+F+P=Hadouken!

honestly craig, I wasnt that impressed with the footwork of either the fencers. Sure, its better than my saber fencing... but it looks ugly.

I stepped out of line in this post. I'm not in a position in the sport to comment on a bout of this level, whatever my opinion might be. Besides that, Sada and Rebecca have done alot in US womens saber fencing, so I'm really unjustified in my criticism.

Sincerely,
Grant Ballew.

[noodle]

i'm not that great with sabre, but here are my notes:

Originally Posted by jBirch

The first action, for example, is a straight attack by both fencers. Ward just goes for it and is a little quicker off the mark. I think it's her point. Sada seems caught a little flat-footed. No matter.

pretty much, yeah ward 1 sada 0

Originally Posted by jBirch

Second action, Sada is smarter, she advances looking for a parry riposte but Ward doesn't give it to her. Sada takes over the action after the pause and attacks to the upper arm. Ward attempts a stop cut to the arm and both hit. I think it's point Sada or maybe simultaneous.

definitely not simul.
both came forward, both stepped back, sada initiated the attack, came after ward, ward threw a stop cut and tried to then parry the blade, but sada still hit in time, two lights. sada's attack. sada 1 ward 1

Originally Posted by jBirch

Third action, Ward attacks with an advance lunge short, looking to draw an attack from Sada. Sada, wisely, doesn't play but is caught making a big move backwards. She recovers and takes over the action. Ward retreats like crazy and manages to just stay out of range as Sada turns up the heat. Sada makes a big lunge, falls short, and waits for Ward to advance. Sada is doing nothing while Ward regains her balance and sets up her attack, closing out Sada's preferred outside high attack line by moving to the left side of the piste. Ward with a HUGE lunge and Sada scampers back, moving quick but in good balance. The game shifts back and Sada takes the action advancing cautiously down the piste. Ward tries a couple of delaying actions, but nothing serious. Sada dominates the distance and pushes Ward toward the back of the piste. As Ward gets close to the end of the piste, however, Sada keeps right on advancing and Ward starts an attack of her own that hits a kinda stunned Sada. Sada is obviously not pleased. Point Ward 2-1

final action, sada charged ward down the strip and ward caught her in prep. i can't tell if she caught any blade on the action. sada 1, ward 2 is indeed the score

Originally Posted by jBirch

Fourth action, Ward advances aggressively and launches an attack. Sada backs it up and takes a swipe at the recovering Ward, but misses. She then, again, lets Ward get her feet back under her and starts a march down the piste. Ward, close to the end of the strip, does an attack and gets the hit. Same action as last time. I'm not sure if Sada misses the attack, or it's a two light thing.Point Ward 3-1.

same action as last time except ward didn't get the prep shot. sada's attack arrives. 2-2.

Originally Posted by jBirch

Fifth action, Sada and Ward advance together, Sada launches a little attack while Ward is moving backward, Ward turns the corner and launches a HUGE advance lunge. Sada, nicely, AIP, with a swipe across Ward's helmet. One light (definitely a result of the new timings). Point Sada 3-2. I didn't see an opposition here, but I think this is the action that Sabreur commented on. This is Sada's best reaction, IMHO.

i saw a parry, riposte with opposition from sada. ward's blade never hit. definitely nothing to do with timings. sada 3 ward 2

Originally Posted by jBirch

Sixth action, Ward advance lunge with hand held low in absense right off the mark. Sada tries a parry but Ward hits the arm. Point Ward 4-2

attack from ward is good 3-3.

Originally Posted by jBirch

Seventh action. Sada throws a quick counter out there to get Ward to slow down. Ward bites. Sada does a short attack to the inside line then follows up with a change of line back to the outside like a snake. Ward looks for the parry, there is none and then counter-attacks. Two lights, Sada's point 4-3.

initial attack from sada is no, ward's counterattack is good, remise from sada is not valid. no attempted parry involved, it was a cut to the chest. ward 4 sada 3

Originally Posted by jBirch

Eigth action, Ward does an advance lunge and hits. Sada has the advance, pauses, then lunges and hits. Simultaneous.

simul

Originally Posted by jBirch

Ninth and final action, Sada does an advance lunge off the mark, Ward does an advance lunge kinda hesitently but Sada does this big sweeping movement with her blade on the advance and I think Ward starts her arm first. Two lights, Ward's AIP. 5-3.

sada pulled, ward attacked into prep, touch ward, 5-3, bout. or break time. ward de-masks and salutes.