Refs getting better?

[oso97]

Its possible to get paid more than the USFA rate?

Around here, its a struggle to get the tournament organizers to pay even that! They're stuck in some old mindset that says people should volunteer to referee just solely out of the goodness of their hearts and the love of the sport.

[PalmFrond]

Originally Posted by oso97

Its possible to get paid more than the USFA rate?

Around here, its a struggle to get the tournament organizers to pay even that! They're stuck in some old mindset that says people should volunteer to referee just solely out of the goodness of their hearts and the love of the sport.

All of fencing refereeing in Ireland operates on this basis. Getting travel expenses paid is considered a big deal.

[schlager7]

This is actually quite irrelevant, which is why I am posting this here. The following comes from the 1894 chapter of my project, Campeche Steel. It is included for those who feel there has been too little progress made in the scoring and refereeing of tournaments:

Organized fencing as a sport was coming to grips with its nature. Sports have rules and rules must not only be codified and followed, from time to time, they are changed. At a general meeting on October 29, 1894 new rules were passed bearing on touches and the counting of points. For the 1894-1895 season, four judges would conduct all foil competitions. Each competitor would fence a bout with every other fencer to an aggregate of five touches per bout. No touch would be awarded unless agreed upon by at least three of the four judges. Additionally, no discussion concerning touches claimed or made was to be held between the contestant and any judges or amongst the judges.

Each judge would, without discussion with his peers, award from one to three points for each touch made, according to the following values: fair touch was one point; a good touch was two; and excellent touch was three points. Each judge would record the points he gave to each touch as it was made during the bout and at the close of the bout award any contestant one point (or some fraction thereof) for good form. The judge would then sign his form and hand it over to the scorekeeper. No judge would disclose to another judge their awards. The final score would be the average of those awarded.

In foil, the rules now further defined the valid target area. The boundaries of the target now being from the collar of the fencing jacket, down the median line to the hips, then along a line drawn from the hip to the posterior limit of the armpit, curving around the front of the arm and along the crest of the shoulder to the collar.

[oiuyt]

Originally Posted by oso97

Its possible to get paid more than the USFA rate?

Note that in the example of local divisions (note plural) that I've reffed this year that rate was independent of referee rating, which means nearly everyone was above USFA national rates.

College reffing is frequently above USFA national rates. In the two conferences in New England referees are paid $125/day (as of a year ago). The ECAC, which hires refs for many collegiate dual meets in the Northeast, pays something like (pardon any errors, I've never worked an ECAC meet as a referee) $60 for the first dual meet and $30 for each additional meet, in addition to travel expenses. Note that a meet means reffing 3 bouts.

In my experience, many collegiate events pay less. $75-$100/day is fairly typical (which still beats USFA national rates for all but the top referees). Some local events are strickly volunteer (or offer an entry fee waiver to a future event, etc.).

Bigger events (sectionals for both sections that I refereed for this year, the SYC I refereed at) generally also include travel expenses (which, of course, are covered for national events as well).

I think PalmFrond's point is well taken. Fencing in the US seems to do a better job for our referees than many other places. I remember a thread on the UK forum discussing referee compensation. My recollection was that a bottle of wine at the end of the competition was considered better than typical. It would be interesting to hear from more of our international members how things are handled wherever they are from.

-B :)

[fluidfencer]

I would referee all day for a $125 bottle of wine :-)

Originally Posted by oiuyt

Note that in the example of local divisions (note plural) that I've reffed this year that rate was independent of referee rating, which means nearly everyone was above USFA national rates.

College reffing is frequently above USFA national rates. In the two conferences in New England referees are paid $125/day (as of a year ago). The ECAC, which hires refs for many collegiate dual meets in the Northeast, pays something like (pardon any errors, I've never worked an ECAC meet as a referee) $60 for the first dual meet and $30 for each additional meet, in addition to travel expenses. Note that a meet means reffing 3 bouts.

In my experience, many collegiate events pay less. $75-$100/day is fairly typical (which still beats USFA national rates for all but the top referees). Some local events are strickly volunteer (or offer an entry fee waiver to a future event, etc.).

Bigger events (sectionals for both sections that I refereed for this year, the SYC I refereed at) generally also include travel expenses (which, of course, are covered for national events as well).

I think PalmFrond's point is well taken. Fencing in the US seems to do a better job for our referees than many other places. I remember a thread on the UK forum discussing referee compensation. My recollection was that a bottle of wine at the end of the competition was considered better than typical. It would be interesting to hear from more of our international members how things are handled wherever they are from.

-B

[nahouw]

Originally Posted by oso97

Its possible to get paid more than the USFA rate?

Around here, its a struggle to get the tournament organizers to pay even that! They're stuck in some old mindset that says people should volunteer to referee just solely out of the goodness of their hearts and the love of the sport.

In our Division, it depends upon the competition. If it is for a Division sponsored Open, we'll pay referees something, and for those fencers who volunteer and/or who we ask if they would referee in addition to fencing, we refund the entry fee.

For Qualifiers, we pay above the National rate, because we have a large Division and need referees, and if we didn't pay we wouldn't get the referees to come out. Of course, some do refuse payment and consider it their gift back to the sport. Sometimes at Qualifiers when I am short of referees and need a coach or fencer to referee, I have a separate pay for refereeing one pool to assist us -- but then again, what I pay for just that one pool, works out to be more pay than the National scale, considering the amount of work involved.

I don't understand tournament organizers that don't pay their referees -- it's not about the pay per se, but rather, the pay is a token of appreciation for the service that they provide. When you pay people a token of appreciation for giving of their time, they are more apt to want to referee for you.