Various Questions About Equipment

[nylebuss]

So, I have been looking at buying some new equipment lately and have been looking at different places to find the best prices. But, now I have a few questions about the places and what it is I would be buying.

First Question: I am looking at buying a couple of Vnity blades to use instead of my schools cheap blades. And I am wondering what the difference between the Vnity blades offered by TCA and the Vnity blades offered by SG Fencing to justify the near $50 difference?

Second Question: Of the mid-range jackets offered by Uhlmann, Allstar, Leon Paul, and Duellist, which is worth the price? I can only judge by the looks, which has me leaning towards Duellist's Evolution series, since I have not been able to see them in person, and the price, which also has me leaning towards Duellist's.

Third Question: If I do go with the Duellist Evolution line does the $20 difference in price offered by the UK site offset the shipping costs, rather buying it for $20 more from the US site?

Thank-you for your time. :P

[penguin_2000]

Originally Posted by nylebuss

First Question: I am looking at buying a couple of Vnity blades to use instead of my schools cheap blades. And I am wondering what the difference between the Vnity blades offered by TCA and the Vnity blades offered by SG Fencing to justify the near $50 difference?

If you've never used a Vniti blade before, you really should try before you buy. They are a bit heavier than most "cheap blades." You may not like the weight. The $50 price diffence is due to the fact that TCA has not sold that blade in a long time and has, apparantly, not updated their website in an even longer time. Good luck.

[mfp]

Originally Posted by nylebuss

Third Question: If I do go with the Duellist Evolution line does the $20 difference in price offered by the UK site offset the shipping costs, rather buying it for $20 more from the US site?

There are two Duellist lines with "Evolution" in their name, the 350N Evolution and the 800N Evolution. However since you mentioned a $20 difference, I'll assume you mean the 350N. For the 350N Evolution, buying from the US site probably makes sense.

However for the 800N Evolution line, paying the 35 GBP fee to become a "member" and then ordering off the UK site would be significantly cheaper. While you'd have to pay the member fee and international shipping, the much lower member price on the UK site for the 800N kit would more than make up for it. If the Duellist UK prices listed include VAT (which is probably the case), then you could save even more on the 800N kit since VAT isn't payable on orders shipped out of the EU.

[nylebuss]

Originally Posted by penguin_2000

If you've never used a Vniti blade before, you really should try before you buy. They are a bit heavier than most "cheap blades." You may not like the weight. The $50 price diffence is due to the fact that TCA has not sold that blade in a long time and has, apparantly, not updated their website in an even longer time. Good luck.

I have tried the blade out before, I just was not able to buy it at the time.

Originally Posted by mfp

There are two Duellist lines with "Evolution" in their name, the 350N Evolution and the 800N Evolution. However since you mentioned a $20 difference, I'll assume you mean the 350N. For the 350N Evolution, buying from the US site probably makes sense.

Silly me. Yes I was talking about the 350N series, can't quite afford the 800N, especially since I don't plan to go to a competition that requires 800N.

[CvilleFencer]

As mentioned TCA lists Vniti blades but when you call up to order one at their to good to be true price they are "out of stock" which they have been for a long time now, and try to sell you a Dynamo blade instead which is nothing close to the quality of the Vniti. They are the best blades around for durability and unless you are a 12 year old girl the weight should not be an issue. The new ones are a bit lighter. If you like a light weapon use some ultralight parts in the assembly like a Vniti bell guard and an LP plastic Belgian handle. That keeps the overall weight down a lot, but I don't like the point heavy feel if gives.

As to uniforms, LP or Duelist would be the way to go. The piping on the Duelist kit does look rather spiffy. They both have a cooling fabric and both are full stretch. I would lean towards LP just because they make and stick their own gear in their shop. Duelist gets their gear sourced from South Africa, South Asia, Morocco and lots of other places. Not that it is bad gear, but if I am paying those huge prices (I can only assume they based their pricing off LP) then I expect to have a guy stitching my kit that I can call up and talk too about it.

I would avoid the Uhlmann/Allstar at this level as it is not full stretch and is very stiff and not very comfy. Go with LP or Duelist. Either one is great kit. I would not even bother trying to join the UK Duelist club. IIRC it is only for folks that are living in the UK. ***edit*** Actually I just checked the UK site and it seems that now anyone can join, but they do not seem to be listing the prices like they used to do for the membership...***If you go with duelist just order from the US site. You will get your gear quicker and have more options should you need to return or upgrade.

[Duellist USA]

To answer a few questions brought up below...

"Third Question: If I do go with the Duellist Evolution line does the $20 difference in price offered by the UK site offset the shipping costs, rather buying it for $20 more from the US site?"

Duellist International is no longer fullfilling orders from the US. They send them all our way anyhow.

"However for the 800N Evolution line, paying the 35 GBP fee to become a "member" and then ordering off the UK site would be significantly cheaper. While you'd have to pay the member fee and international shipping, the much lower member price on the UK site for the 800N kit would more than make up for it."

The situation is first see above answer...*s*..second the membership program is in fact only good for UK customers.

However for the 800N Evolution line, paying the 35 GBP fee to become a "member" and then ordering off the UK site would be significantly cheaper. While you'd have to pay the member fee and international shipping, the much lower member price on the UK site for the 800N kit would more than make up for it. If the Duellist UK prices listed include VAT (which is probably the case), then you could save even more on the 800N kit since VAT isn't payable on orders shipped out of the EU.

Dont forget the DUTIES and the fact there is a good chance of it getting hung up in customs for a couple of days if you arent lucky..


All in all Duellist USA will be your best bet for Duellist Gear...we handle all the headaches....and are much closer....and in a better time zone *g*


Hope this clarifies things...

Rick Shellhouse
Duellist USA

[mfp]

Originally Posted by Duellist USA

To answer a few questions brought up below...

"Third Question: If I do go with the Duellist Evolution line does the $20 difference in price offered by the UK site offset the shipping costs, rather buying it for $20 more from the US site?"

Duellist International is no longer fullfilling orders from the US. They send them all our way anyhow.

"However for the 800N Evolution line, paying the 35 GBP fee to become a "member" and then ordering off the UK site would be significantly cheaper. While you'd have to pay the member fee and international shipping, the much lower member price on the UK site for the 800N kit would more than make up for it."

The situation is first see above answer...*s*..second the membership program is in fact only good for UK customers.

However for the 800N Evolution line, paying the 35 GBP fee to become a "member" and then ordering off the UK site would be significantly cheaper. While you'd have to pay the member fee and international shipping, the much lower member price on the UK site for the 800N kit would more than make up for it. If the Duellist UK prices listed include VAT (which is probably the case), then you could save even more on the 800N kit since VAT isn't payable on orders shipped out of the EU.

Dont forget the DUTIES and the fact there is a good chance of it getting hung up in customs for a couple of days if you arent lucky..


All in all Duellist USA will be your best bet for Duellist Gear...we handle all the headaches....and are much closer....and in a better time zone *g*


Hope this clarifies things...

Rick Shellhouse
Duellist USA

Yes, this clarifies things, so I'll update my suggestion ...

If someone in the US is considering the Duellist line they should understand that Duellist UK apparently discriminates against US customers by excluding them from their "membership" program with its lower pricing.

On some items (such as the 800N Evolution line mentioned above) the difference in US pricing and the lower UK member pricing is pretty shocking, even after you consider the one time 35 GBP annual "member" fee and what shipping would cost from the UK. You'd make out far better on a 800N Evolution kit by ordering off the UK site at the member price ... if you could. However Duellist and Duellist USA apparently have agreed that US customers cannot do so and will be redirected to the exclusive (?) US dealer and their higher prices.

While there can be advantages to ordering from Duellist USA vs Duellist UK, one would hope there'd better be, since you can end up paying substantially more for the privilege.

[miyamoto]

Originally Posted by mfp

Yes, this clarifies things, so I'll update my suggestion ...

If someone in the US is considering the Duellist line they should understand that Duellist UK apparently discriminates against US customers by excluding them from their "membership" program with its lower pricing.

On some items (such as the 800N Evolution line mentioned above) the difference in US pricing and the lower UK member pricing is pretty shocking, even after you consider the one time 35 GBP annual "member" fee and what shipping would cost from the UK. You'd make out far better on a 800N Evolution kit by ordering off the UK site at the member price ... if you could. However Duellist and Duellist USA apparently have agreed that US customers cannot do so and will be redirected to the exclusive (?) US dealer and their higher prices.

While there can be advantages to ordering from Duellist USA vs Duellist UK, one would hope there'd better be, since you can end up paying substantially more for the privilege.

Don't be so hard on 'em...

Have you ever looked at the PBT prices from the main store in Hungary? If they didn't have an exculsive dealer, you could get some really good equipment, for some really good prices.

Instead, it's cheaper to order from Uhlmann direct, and get better equipment, at lower prices...

[Duellist USA]

Originally Posted by mfp

Yes, this clarifies things, so I'll update my suggestion ...

If someone in the US is considering the Duellist line they should understand that Duellist UK apparently discriminates against US customers by excluding them from their "membership" program with its lower pricing.

On some items (such as the 800N Evolution line mentioned above) the difference in US pricing and the lower UK member pricing is pretty shocking, even after you consider the one time 35 GBP annual "member" fee and what shipping would cost from the UK. You'd make out far better on a 800N Evolution kit by ordering off the UK site at the member price ... if you could. However Duellist and Duellist USA apparently have agreed that US customers cannot do so and will be redirected to the exclusive (?) US dealer and their higher prices.

While there can be advantages to ordering from Duellist USA vs Duellist UK, one would hope there'd better be, since you can end up paying substantially more for the privilege.

MFP,

The difference in pricing is universal accross the board with companies based overseas

Leon Paul Sydney 800N
UK Pricing 278.60
US Pricing 329.18

Allstar Startex 95 800N
UK Pricing 244.22
Blade Fencing Price 350.00

Duellist 800N Evolution
UK Pricing 220 (Incidentally if you run XE.com's conversion this comes to 250)
US Pricing 320.00

Leon Pauls Difference 50.58
Allstar Difference 105.78
Duellist Difference 100.00 (based on correct conversion 70.00)

Duellist UK membership program is actually undergoing more change as well. The "pricing" is changing to a standard discount which is available via Duellist USA with a club membership (although No it is not available to individuals)

Incidentally a 800 Evolution plus the one time membership fee plus shipping comes to 313 (with the correct conversion 330) We sell the same jacket for 320 plus shipping.

I can understand how it "looks better" but a little more research shows a different picture. As for us being the "exclusive and more expensive US dealer" yes we are the exclusive dealers at the present time for Duellist here in the US. As for more expensive I think for the quality of the gear and price you will find we are well in line with the rest of the industry while personally I think our gear is the best out there.

As for advantages to ordering from Duellist USA...well the fact we are on the same continent comes to mind....available via phone pretty much anytime including Sundays...exclusive products ie custom color body cords...and a combined over 50 years of fencing background up to the International level..

I hope this explains things abit more and helps clarify the situation. While I can understand if you do not agree with the situation all we can do is apologize and wish you the best of luck.

Rick Shellhouse
Duellist USA

[Craig]

A better comparison would be the "all in" costs - product plus shipping - for the European vs. US based vendors.

The US vendors have to pass on increased cost of goods due to customs duties, but have (hopefully) less shipping cost tacked on. Buying direct from Europe you can generally avoid paying duty yourself if the order isn't large enough but you do have higher shipping rates - which will increase given that oil is pushing even higher.

Craig

[Duellist USA]

Ya caught me...I was too lazy to figure out the shipping and everything else...I did figure from the non VAT pricing though *g*...And do we even WANT to mention the occasional snafu with customs at times....lol..



Rick Shellhouse
Duellist USA

[mfp]

Originally Posted by Duellist USA

The difference in pricing is universal accross the board with companies based overseas

True, but you do seem to be missing the point ...

Originally Posted by Duellist USA

Leon Paul Sydney 800N
UK Pricing 278.60
US Pricing 329.18 ...

Let's take our research further and price out the full uniform from each vendor, i.e. a set of the 800N jacket and knickers (breeches).

For calculations below, we'll use xe.com current spot rate of 1.00 GBP
United Kingdom Pound = 1.82834 USD (ugh).

Leon Paul Sydney 800N jacket and knickers

Cost when ordered from US web site: $559.05 US total
Cost when ordered from UK web site: $505.12 US total (276.27 GBP)

The 276.27 GBP above includes international air freight from the UK to the US. Even if you add in the cost of the 1-3% foreign exchange fee you get hit with on most credit cards, you'd still come out ahead by purchasing this particular order from the UK site, vs the US site.


Duellist 800N Evolution jacket and knickers

Cost from Duellist US: $535.41 US total (using cheap UPS ground shipping)
Cost from Duellist UK: $448.30 US before shipping.

Looking at the Duellist UK site, the jacket costs 139.99 GBP. The breeches cost 109.99 GBP. The sum of the two is 246.98 GBP. Assuming that includes VAT, then the export subtotal after subtracting the VAT would be 210.20 GBP. Add the cost of the one time 35 GBP "membership" and that comes to 245.20 GBP before shipping or $448.30 US. The difference on this first order is $87.11 US which is certainly enough to cover shipping. If you were already a UK member and previously paid the 35 GBP, it looks like the savings of buying from the UK over the US would be on the order of $150 US before the cost of shipping.

Originally Posted by Duellist USA

I can understand how it "looks better" but a little more research shows a different picture.

Uh, no. More research still shows that it can pay to shop around and there are cases where one could save by ordering from the UK over the US.

Originally Posted by Duellist USA

As for us being the "exclusive and more expensive US dealer" yes we are the exclusive dealers at the present time for Duellist here in the US. As for more expensive I think for the quality of the gear and price you will find we are well in line with the rest of the industry while personally I think our gear is the best out there.

You'd think someone who truely believes their quality, price and service is either the best or at least in line with the industry would sell on that and wouldn't have to stoop to what essentially amounts to economic protectionism via exclusivity ...

When manufacturers like allStar, PBT and now Duellist do exclusives and prevent US customers from doing what of the rest of the world can do, it leaves a bad taste in the mouth.

There certainly are obstacles, costs and issues for foreign manufactures selling in to the US market. And likewise there are costs and issues that face US reps for foreign companies. However companies should be compensated for the value the provide, not simply because they're the only choice.

As for advantages to ordering from Duellist USA...well the fact we are on the same continent comes to mind....available via phone pretty much anytime including Sundays...exclusive products ie custom color body cords...and a combined over 50 years of fencing background up to the International level..

Well, the next time I'm in the mood to pay more than necessary on equipment so I can phone you, I'll keep you in mind :)

[Duellist USA]

MFP,

I almost went to the trouble to answer you and inform you of those little things like duties , conversion charges, and everything else but then thought about it.

You as a consumer are more than welcome to draw whatever conclusions you so desire as well as shop where ever you so desire.

Good luck in your shopping. If you ever see us at an event please feel free to drop by and say hello, would love to meet an international purchasing expert such as yourself.


Rick Shellhouse
Duellist USA

[mfp]

Originally Posted by Duellist USA

MFP,

I almost went to the trouble to answer you and inform you of those little things like duties , conversion charges, and everything else but then thought about it.

Yes, that would require you to think about it. No need to "inform" me thanks, I am already informed about those issues and more and am quite familiar with:

-- The harmonized tariff system (more familiar than certain fencing vendors it seems based on the customs forms I've seen)

-- Duties and how you as a reseller must pay them but how individuals typically can avoid them on reasonablly sized imports

-- VAT/GST issues

-- Conversion charges (consumer hint: use a USAA Visa card to get interbank spot rates with only a 1% markup)

-- US vs International shipping charges

-- The generally miserable performance of the US dollar over the last few years.

As for the customs F.U.D. (fear, uncertainy and doubt) you're hyping, both LP UK and LP "USA" actually currently fullfill and ship orders to the US from the UK, and quite efficiently I might add, without the sky falling in or duties being demanded. Other vendors routinely ship to the US from Europe as well.

Furthermore over the last 3 years of overseas orders from various vendors, I've only had one shipment somewhat delayed for customs inspection. It was a box of epees that got opened, resealed using "Inspected by US Customs" tape, and then sent along, with no duties demanded.

Ordering from overseas can take a little extra knowledge, but really isn't that hard and could result in significant savings depending on exactly what one is shopping for. In other cases the weight and/or value could combine to make buying from a US vendors the cheaper choice. Great, then do that then.

The point is competition is good. Informed consumers are good. Consumer choice is good. Vendors who try to restrict consumer choice through exclusive territory arrangements -- not so good.

[wpotere]

Originally Posted by nylebuss

Silly me. Yes I was talking about the 350N series, can't quite afford the 800N, especially since I don't plan to go to a competition that requires 800N.

This line scares me in so many ways.... It is not about the competition but rather your safety! 800N is just safer and can keep you from being injured if something bad should happen. So, if I were you I would save up a little more and get the better gear. And to be honest, it seems to wear longer giving you more bang for your buck.

[Duellist USA]

MFP,

As I stated previously (without the personal attacks you seem to prefer) you are the ultimate power...the consumer and as such can choose to shop where ever you so choose. As can any of our numerous customers who seem very well pleased with our service and business standards.

You seem to be more upset by the fact we are the exclusive dealer than anything else. By that logic...well you should be mad at Chevy because you have to buy from a Chevy dealer for that new truck...wait Jaguar isnt sold in BMW dealerships.....how dare they...Oh no...you cant buy a whopper at McDonalds...and before you run off on teh fact that there are multiple chevy dealers etc....they all live up to the parent corporations standards of business as far as image, pricing, and branding...

So We should have said no to Duellist UK when they said this was the arrangement if we wanted to be a dealer? You'll pardon me if I find that amusing.

And the really amusing thing is the whole "membership" issue is a moot point. It was going away before we even started talks with Duellist UK.

As you obviously have your own beliefs concerning this matter as do I. I think it best to agree to disagree and stop clogging the board back and forth. When you are in the same situation as I am...then let me know and we will talk. Until then I wish you the best of luck in your bargain shopping.


Rick Shellhouse

[nylebuss]

Originally Posted by wpotere

This line scares me in so many ways.... It is not about the competition but rather your safety! 800N is just safer and can keep you from being injured if something bad should happen. So, if I were you I would save up a little more and get the better gear. And to be honest, it seems to wear longer giving you more bang for your buck.

Yes, that might be true. But then again my safety is safely supplied to right now with a cheap(albeit uncomfortable) BG set of jacket and knickers. And personally I'm not comfortable with paying $285 more for the 800N set at this point in my life. The difference there is more money than I have spent on my entire wardrobe in the past 2 years. I just want a small upgrade that will give me decent and comfortable set of knickers and jackets...

[wpotere]

Your choice, but cheap means two things...

You'll buy more often and

You might have to pay a large hospital bill.

FIE is so worth it. I agree with Barry, I really wish there was a standard.

[nylebuss]

I don't call $145 cheap...

I go to school, so I can only work during the summer, and I have to buy all my own equipment, and I can't afford to spend maybe a months paycheck on an FIE jacket. I have to be able to pay for gas, other items, and fencing tournaments. One day when I can afford to pay $320 for a jacket I will, but at this point in my life it is just not a possibility.

[wpotere]

Originally Posted by nylebuss

I don't call $145 cheap...

I go to school, so I can only work during the summer, and I have to buy all my own equipment, and I can't afford to spend maybe a months paycheck on an FIE jacket. I have to be able to pay for gas, other items, and fencing tournaments. One day when I can afford to pay $320 for a jacket I will, but at this point in my life it is just not a possibility.

Death or sever injury isn't cheap either...

Now, I simply commented on you post...

"Silly me. Yes I was talking about the 350N series, can't quite afford the 800N, especially since I don't plan to go to a competition that requires 800N."

My comment here was because of "how" you said it. You make it sound as if the only reason that you would by FIE is because you "had" too for tournaments. This is the school of thought that I was focusing on that is WRONG. You should get FIE because it offers better protection for YOU, not because it costs more or looks better or worst yet, it is required.

The heavier materials are designed to help keep blades from puncturing YOU. My retort was simply stateing that you could have to pay a large doctor bill (much more that the FIE jacket cost) all because you wanted to "save" money.

Do as you will, but I wanted to make certain the beginners understand what the FIE is for.

FYI, you can get the FIE World Cup from Uhlmann for 116 Euro right now. That translates to $145 at the current exchange rate not $345. Tie that in with some shipping and you have a better jacket. You can order directly from them.