Electric apparatus

[Eduardo]

Hello folks,

Here's the problem: my club can't afford to fix our three apparatuses, let alone buy new ones. Also, each of them comes from a different company (one is a Leon Paul, another is an Uhlmann (I think) and I don't know about the last one).

Anyway, I was thinking about it, and how difficult can if be to build an apparatus? The electronic instructions do not seem to be so complicated, and all it has to do is to lit the right lights and make the buzz sound.

Here's an example of what I am talking about. This guy decided to build his own MP3 player, so he did it: http://www.techdesign.be/projects/020/020.htm As you see, he even got to put an lcd screen on it.

Of course I'm not suggesting that we would attempt to host a tournament using these home-made apparatuses, but for our own training, used together with pulley cords, why not?

Hope you guys have some thoughts on that.

[Eduardo]

Just complementing... I recently bought a router for my home internet network, and it cost 50 dollars. I really can't conceive that a scoring box costs so much more. Even my microwave was cheaper

unn... maybe I should go commercial :-)

[penguin_2000]

Originally Posted by Eduardo

Just complementing... I recently bought a router for my home internet network, and it cost 50 dollars. I really can't conceive that a scoring box costs so much more. Even my microwave was cheaper

unn... maybe I should go commercial :-)

Uh... there probably exists orders of magnitudes more microwaves and routers than scoring boxes. I don't know anybody that DOESN'T own a microwave. Think about competition and "economies of scale" here...
That being said, I know that there used to be a "do-it-yourself" fencing box. You ordered it and soldered all the pieces together, wired up the lights, etc. I think it ran around $150 or so. I don't know if such things exist today.

[Eduardo]

oh yeah, definately. of course it makes sense, but, you know... still... I should switch careers and go to electrical engineering... hehe

but I do like the "do-it-yourself" kit idea. Maybe that's how I'd sell my stuff...

I gotta find a wannabe bill gates...

[DHCJr]

You don't list the area you are in, so I can not suggest a Technician. This is different than an Armorer. The electronics are a lot simplier now, then the ones that you have down, the problem is the programming. When there is a rule change, you no longer get out your soldering iron, you get out your laptop.

But you also need to consider quality of the parts. For example, BlueSky stopped producing for a while, because the quality of the parts they were using had problems. They are fixing the ones out there, but they have decided to not produce any more until they make it bullet proof. They hope to have the retooling done before September.

If you would like to find a Technician to look at your boxes or to even let you know, if they can be upgraded, send me an e-mail.

[nylebuss]

Originally Posted by Eduardo

Anyway, I was thinking about it, and how difficult can if be to build an apparatus? The electronic instructions do not seem to be so complicated, and all it has to do is to lit the right lights and make the buzz sound.

I'm not quite sure of how much it cost him, but one of the people here on my school's team built about 10 boxes it took him about 2 to 3 weeks for them to be in good working order. Of course these only work for Foil, and the Epee has broken, soo... It is possible though, and shouldn't be forbiddingly hard.

[Eduardo]

Hi Donald,

I'm in New Brunswick, Canada. We do have some good technicians and armourers here. It's probably something simple... but we have no money at all...

Nylebuss: that's what I'm talking about! :-)

The situation is that I think my club is pretty much broken, so we'll have to be creative if we want to keep things going, so we'll have to be creative.

Newbies (and advanced fencers as well) like to come to a club and see stuff working. They will not stay (and pay fees) under the promise that things will be fixed in the future, so I'm trying by all means to lower our costs to a minimum and raising the fun to a maximum :-)

[Eduardo]

If we had money to fix the boxes we have today, we'd still have only three of them... Call me crazy but I'd sell them all, together with the reels, and instead I'd use homemade boxes and pulley cords... The money difference we could use to get some new jackets and gloves... :-)

[Joe biebel]

Originally Posted by penguin_2000

Uh... there probably exists orders of magnitudes more microwaves and routers than scoring boxes. I don't know anybody that DOESN'T own a microwave. Think about competition and "economies of scale" here...
That being said, I know that there used to be a "do-it-yourself" fencing box. You ordered it and soldered all the pieces together, wired up the lights, etc. I think it ran around $150 or so. I don't know if such things exist today.

Penguin is right about economy of scale. As A fabricator of "custom" systems (very often 1 of) I know what goes into a prototype. If you think aboutit, how many of these scoring machines are you going to sell? It's not like your sending an order to Taiwan to fabricate 100,000 plus units. Frankly, I'm a little surprised that they can be made and sold at current prices.

[Eduardo]

Hi Joe,

I'm not denying the economy of scale factor. My idea of "going commercial" was more a joke than anything - fencing is for me just a leisure.

In fact my idea would be the opposite: to design a simple, do-it-yourself, scoring box, and making the project freely available (if you see my first post here you'll find the mp3 player project, that's the idea!).

Perhaps another idea would be to convert some gaming system (such as the GameBoy, for example), into scoring boxes, or even old Ataris :-) I don't know, it's just ideas... I don't know if there's a simple way to write a program for ataris, tough. But imagine: the slots for the handles could be used for plugging in the weapons and the lamps and sounds would come though the TV-output (if you're really into it you could even use a TV set to give the outputs, with timing, points, all the cool stuff...)

I'm no electric/electronics specialist, so I can only air my ideas and hope that someone will turn them into practical objects :-)

[fencinman89]

Or make fencing into an Xbox or or PS game, has 2 people fence and let a live director referee the gaming bout.
-Tre'

[Eduardo]

Originally Posted by fencinman89

Or make fencing into an Xbox or or PS game, has 2 people fence and let a live director referee the gaming bout.
-Tre'

unnn

Maybe the fencing is done by the computer and your role as a player is to referee? Would that work for you?

[fencinman89]

That would be a good idea for a Referees exam to get a rating.
-Tre'

[Eduardo]

Originally Posted by fencinman89

That would be a good idea for a Referees exam to get a rating.
-Tre'

Definately.
Add to it some excitement, like the monster-mum-of-12-year-old-fencer who'll attack the referee, you have to blackcard her fast or you'll lose a "life"

Or, a coach will get a sabre and challenge you to a duel, so you have to (a) run away; (b) run through the gym, find the hidden sabre and attack him back

[DieterS]

Eduardo,

If you have any kind of electronics background, you could easily build a scoring machine from scrap parts. The cost would be next to nothing if you cannibalized your broken scoring machines to make the basic circuit for the lights and buzzer. However, what's expensive and not as easy as it seems is to create a unit that accurately calculates all the circuit resistances and correctly implements all the timings and lockouts.

Several years ago, I was outraged at the high price of scoring machines ($750 and up just for an obsolescent two-weapon model) and the lack of availability and service (the waiting list for a new machine was about a year at the time). So, just like many people before us, my son and I decided to try to design an FIE-compliant scoring machine ourselves.

What happened? After hundreds of unpaid hours and many thousands in cash (about three times what we budgeted), testing a succession of prototypes at a local fencing club, choosing reliable parts, and locating a quality manufacturing plant . . . we were successful and the Eigertek Eclipse was born!

We also had hoped that our selling price would be about half the going rate with a zero wait time and good service. And that happened as well, with the result that several other manufacturers lowered their prices (the free market at work) to the delight of all fencers!

So, if you truly feel committed, I'd encourage you to pursue your project.

If you feel particularly entrepreneurial, you might also want to look into manufacturing high-quality, reliable FIE maraging foil blades. Paying $80 to $100 and up is incredibly high for a piece of steel with no higher technology than your average fork!

Best wishes,

Dieter

----------------
Dieter Schlaepfer
President, Eigertek

[Eduardo]

Hello

Unfortunately I don't have a background in electronics... I guess I should have thought of that before I chose a career to follow, eh?

I found your website on the internet and the Eclipse looked pretty cool. Though, my project is different: if would be to design the box and the programming parts (assuming there are any...) and make the project freely available on the internet, that is, it should be something that anyone with *some* ability to build things should be able to complete. I say *some* because I understand that not everyone knows how to weld things together, make a little program, etc. Just like the MP3 Player project I pointed out in my initial post.

Fortunately I'm still a student and I heard there's a professor who might be interested in developing it... hehe... So I'll talk to him one of these days and see what we can do, if anything at all.

Maraging blades? That's project #3.

Project #2 is to get my grandma to make my uniforms

[fencerchica]

Hi Dieter! My college club purchased an Eclipse last year after a lot of comparison shopping, and were extremely satisfied with the results. You made a great machine, thanks! :-)

[Drifter]

Originally Posted by Eduardo

Hello

Unfortunately I don't have a background in electronics... I guess I should have thought of that before I chose a career to follow, eh?

I found your website on the internet and the Eclipse looked pretty cool. Though, my project is different: if would be to design the box and the programming parts (assuming there are any...) and make the project freely available on the internet, that is, it should be something that anyone with *some* ability to build things should be able to complete. I say *some* because I understand that not everyone knows how to weld things together, make a little program, etc. Just like the MP3 Player project I pointed out in my initial post.

Fortunately I'm still a student and I heard there's a professor who might be interested in developing it... hehe... So I'll talk to him one of these days and see what we can do, if anything at all.

Maraging blades? That's project #3.

Project #2 is to get my grandma to make my uniforms

The place to start would be to learn about micro-controllers. If you been reading the other thread I've been posting to on the Armory board lately then I probably sound like an advertisment for this company, but Parallax makes a VERY easy to program microcontroller called the Basic stamp 2 and they have GREAT educational material on programing the things as well as building small electical apparatii (sp?) with them. It is definitely possible to build a 3 weapon fencing box with all the bells and whistles out of one of these things. And at a small cost in dollars. The problem, and the reason I abandoned a similar project, is that the cost in climbing the learning curve and time spent programing was more than the cost of buying an Eigertek.

(I'll pause to give mad props to Dieter and point out that you really can't beat $395 for a great little box. Also keep in mind what you're asking for help in doing would undermine his ability to sell his product. A Free OS for a microcontrolled fencing box could financially hurt a number of people. Yes Don I know this is the opposite side of the argument I was making in the other thread. Trying to be fair and balanced. Oops I guess I have to send a dollar to Fox News now.)

That having been said, the Basic Stamp is a B!tch3n little MC that is lots of fun and I strongly recommend it if you're going to go forward with your, build your own, plan.

http://www.parallax.com/html_pages/r...arted_main.asp

[fencinman89]

Dieter, How much does it cost for you to make one of you little boxes, how much profit are you making?
-Tre'

[Eduardo]

Originally Posted by fencinman89

Dieter, How much does it cost for you to make one of you little boxes, how much profit are you making?
-Tre'

That's an indiscreet question... but I wonder that too

But it does beg the question: are scoring boxes expensive because there's not a lot of demand for them, or isn't there enough demand for them because they're expensive?

Also, in response to Drifter, I don't know if having an opensource scoring box would cause such an impact in the market. I suppose that people with enough money would still go for the pre-assembled boxes.

My "project" is, first, a cheap alternative for poor clubs and individuals who cannot afford a box (thus if they do build their own boxes, it's not stealing someone else's market); and second, a way to develop curiosity about how things work.

Of course when I say it's a project, I don't really mean it, as I don't even know where to start - I'm a sociologist, all I know about electricity is that it gives shocks