Countering against small and fast opponents

[fencingmetalfan]

Just got back from a free-fencing session. I won all of my bouts today except for one. There was a shortage of opponents, so my coach had me go against this one small kid, he couldn't have been older than eleven or twelve. He demolished me at 5-2. What threw me off was that he was an incredibly small target for one, he advanced rapidly, and he lunged incredibly fast. More often than not he hit me off-target, but he also had the right of way most of the time. What would your all strategies be for dealing with an opponent like this? By the way, this is in foil.

[Go? Fencing?]

I probably would step up my bladework, use what reach I have, and parry a lot.

[Grey]

Establish priority. I would suggest aileen, also known as point-in-line to deter him from attacking initially. Progress your game slowly with strong compound parries varying between standard and circular parries.

Play a distance game. You being taller will have the advantage of reach. Hopefully you are fast enough too. If he is still being aggressive, use aileen on the retreat whenever he attempts an offensive, to pose as a threat to him incase he misses. As to smaller and shorter target areas... you can simply stand 'en guarde' in a lowered position from normal.

Search around the forums too. There any many solutions to your current situation that has been posted before in the past.

[whtouche]

It hasn't been mentioned yet here I don't think so I'll go ahead and say it:

STOP FENCING TO WIN IN PRACTICE.
Cool, you "won all your bouts" except for one. What happens when you go to a tournament, see one of those people you regularly beat, only to discover that in "practice" they're "practicing" things, and now have a more well rounded game and you can't beat them?

It's a bit off target, but the biggest road block to improvement is that most fencers don't know how to practice correctly.

[haroldbuck]

Originally Posted by whtouche

It hasn't been mentioned yet here I don't think so I'll go ahead and say it:

STOP FENCING TO WIN IN PRACTICE.
Cool, you "won all your bouts" except for one. What happens when you go to a tournament, see one of those people you regularly beat, only to discover that in "practice" they're "practicing" things, and now have a more well rounded game and you can't beat them?

It's a bit off target, but the biggest road block to improvement is that most fencers don't know how to practice correctly.

White light?

Another problem with these "win every bout in practice" people is that they often self-direct very favorably for themselves. If they "can't agree"--because it was really the other person's touch but they refuse to admit it--they make the other person throw it out. Then, when they get to a bout with an objective referee, they can't possibly win.

[LUDICROUS]

Originally Posted by whtouche

It hasn't been mentioned yet here I don't think so I'll go ahead and say it:

STOP FENCING TO WIN IN PRACTICE.
Cool, you "won all your bouts" except for one. What happens when you go to a tournament, see one of those people you regularly beat, only to discover that in "practice" they're "practicing" things, and now have a more well rounded game and you can't beat them?

It's a bit off target, but the biggest road block to improvement is that most fencers don't know how to practice correctly.

Agreed. Nothing to add, so I'll just fill the text count here

[Ordway]

Originally Posted by whtouche

STOP FENCING TO WIN IN PRACTICE.
Cool, you "won all your bouts" except for one. What happens when you go to a tournament, see one of those people you regularly beat, only to discover that in "practice" they're "practicing" things, and now have a more well rounded game and you can't beat them?

It's a bit off target, but the biggest road block to improvement is that most fencers don't know how to practice correctly.

Yes and no... Fencing to win does have its place in practice. Pushing hard enough to win and to give up as few touches as possible is a skill like any other, and needs to be practiced. If I never go full-out to win in practice, I know that I will have difficulty going full-out to win in a tournament. Just telling myself "yeah, NOW you should really take it seriously!" doesn't cut it if I haven't practiced the mental/physical "competitive mode." I think some people can switch "on" automatically, maybe even unconsciously, in a tournament setting, so they don't have to think about practicing it.

That said, I agree that it's not something to do all the time or even most of the time. Practice is a time to learn and try new things and refine things; fencing to win every bout, all the time, would be ultimately counterproductive. I typically "gear up" in the practices leading up to a major tournament (maybe just the practice before, for a local one, more time ahead for an important one).

[fencingmetalfan]

One of the main things that I do while free-fencing is try out the techniques I learn in class.

Originally Posted by haroldbuck

White light?

Another problem with these "win every bout in practice" people is that they often self-direct very favorably for themselves. If they "can't agree"--because it was really the other person's touch but they refuse to admit it--they make the other person throw it out. Then, when they get to a bout with an objective referee, they can't possibly win.

No, we always have free-fencing set up so that there's a person outside directing. And the fact that I won the bouts wasn't what I was trying to bring up, I just wanted to see how I would deal with the bout that I lost. When there's enough people, we try and set up the free-fencing like we would set up a tournament, directors and all. On top of that we do a scoring pool, where your overall score for the day is how many hits you landed minus how many were landed against you. This encourages fencers to go all out, and also to be defensive. This type of practice is what is helpful in tournaments.

[achilleus]

This is off-topic, and I understand you weren't interested in highlighting the won/lost thing, but...

Originally Posted by fencingmetalfan

One of the main things that I do while free-fencing is try out the techniques I learn in class.
...
No, we always have free-fencing set up so that there's a person outside directing. And the fact that I won the bouts wasn't what I was trying to bring up, I just wanted to see how I would deal with the bout that I lost. When there's enough people, we try and set up the free-fencing like we would set up a tournament, directors and all. On top of that we do a scoring pool, where your overall score for the day is how many hits you landed minus how many were landed against you. This encourages fencers to go all out, and also to be defensive. This type of practice is what is helpful in tournaments.

So which is it?
Do you try out the techniques?
Or do you go all out?

The type of practice you describe is great, but not all the time (I've been at clubs where they never kept score, just fenced for time. Interesting environment...). As fencers get better, during practice, they tend to focus more or working on improving and not on winning or going all out.

You sound pretty new to the sport, so I wouldn't worry too much about it, but just think about using your practice time to practice actions, tactics, and technique rather than just winning or worrying about your indicators (the term for the whole +/- thing...)

Enjoy.

[Peach]

A specific question was asked, one that merits consideration. It's a good one, too, no matter how advanced you are. What do you do with small, fast opponents who attack hard?

I'm a sabre fencer, so anything I say can't be applied without moderation to foil.

It's tempting to judge a fencer by his or her height (or age, or weight), but dangerous. More important is distance. How quickly does this fencer close distance? Very quickly? Then you don't want to allow that fencer to gain attacking distance too early. There are several possible ways to do this. The first impulse is to move as quickly as your opponent does--that is, to rush (gallop or act like a freight train). In my opinion, that's not the best solution. At best this will give you a simultaneous attack. At worst you will be moving too fast to control your actions.

Another way is to be more immediate. That is, if your opponent starts with two advances and a lunge, start with an advance-lunge.

A third way is to make your footwork smaller. This seems contradictory against someone fast, but works well because it forces your opponent to cover all the distance for you while keeping your actions in the right tempo. You're both doing, say, a double-advance-lunge, but your opponent must cover twice as much distance as you do in order to accomplish the same action.

Of course I realize that unlike foil, sabre tactics often involve forcing a fast opponent to accept a simultaneous attack so you can set up a different action on the next light. So take my suggestions with a grain of salt.

[jeff]

Like Grey, I recommend a distance game. In addition to establishing lines, also beat-feint to take over ROW and establish threats to disrupt his attacks. With the line, be prepared for his attempt to take, and either permit it and re-take the blade for ROW, or deceive the attempt: disengage and hit. Use these two techniques to make it dangerous for him to close on you, occasionally throwing your own attack to keep him honest. Keep moving your legs so you don't offer predictable distance.

I have no problem with 'fencing to win' in practice: that's when you learn the habits to help you win in competition, and it's the best time to "problem solve" situations like this.

(Don't know why I'm offering advice to "the enemy" (tall people) )

[fencingmetalfan]

I'm not tall. I'm very short, that kid was just much shorter.

[Allen Evans]

Originally Posted by fencingmetalfan

What threw me off was that he was an incredibly small target for one, he advanced rapidly, and he lunged incredibly fast. More often than not he hit me off-target, but he also had the right of way most of the time.

I think before I would solve this problem from a coaching point of view, I would ask some questions:

Where are you when the attack starts? In distance? Out of distance?

Why are you letting the opponent initate the action?

Does this fast attack always finish in the same line?

These answers would help you build a strategy to deal with these sorts of attacks.

[jeff]

Originally Posted by fencingmetalfan

I'm not tall. I'm very short, that kid was just much shorter.

Well, that's all right then.

[ReverseLunge]

Height and reach didn't really matter all that much in foil since right of way equalizes most things. Well that's how it used to be with the older timings. These days I see a lot of retreating stop hits. The smaller opponent has an avantage because he has less target area.

Always fence to win. Always. Give everything you have for every bout. You learn more from giving your best and losing than practicing stuff that may or not work.

When you give it your best and you still lose then you will slowly know what to correct and what to add and subtract from your fencing.

[jBirch]

I'm going to go against the grain and recommend you stop playing a distance game. Step up your footwork and tempo changes and funnel this opponent into one or two attack areas, then close with a parry and riposte. Your goal is to disrupt their attack and steal the initiative with a second intention hit. They are playing simple, so don't get complicated.

Change this from a short, fast opponent into an aggressive one and you'll see what I'm saying.

Hope this helps.

James.

[bwoodward]

Originally Posted by fencingmetalfan

...my coach had me go against this one small kid, he couldn't have been older than eleven or twelve. He demolished me at 5-2. What threw me off was that he was an incredibly small target for one, he advanced rapidly, and he lunged incredibly fast. More often than not he hit me off-target, but he also had the right of way most of the time. What would your all strategies be for dealing with an opponent like this?...

I had an opponent like this at the "Blades at the Beach" tournament in Myrtle Beach. I'm guessing he's about 9 or 10. I had fenced him once before at another tournament. I found the best way to beat him was to to a beat attack or a beat disengage, followed by a really long lunge to surprise him. A flying-through-the-air type lunge. If I don't score right away, he just runs at me like a berserker and I can't retreat fast enough to get enough distance to bring my blade to bear. At the other tournament he got a red card for running into me. He's small enough that he just bounced off. This kid makes me more nervous than anyone else I've fenced.

[mrbiggs]

Originally Posted by jBirch

I'm going to go against the grain and recommend you stop playing a distance game. Step up your footwork and tempo changes and funnel this opponent into one or two attack areas, then close with a parry and riposte. Your goal is to disrupt their attack and steal the initiative with a second intention hit. They are playing simple, so don't get complicated.

I agree. Some of these young kids are unbeleivably good, against older fencers as well as fencers their age. They fence people much taller than them all the time, and I'm sure that nearly every one of them tries to counterattack. They're expecting it. I'd say fence them like you would anyone else, but keep in mind that a foot of height is extremely beneficial in certain situations.

[Larrison]

Hmm.. I fenced someone similar some weeks ago, at an interclub competition. Young fellow, short, fast and rather thin. When he came on guard (foil), he had almost no target area.

Initially threw me for a loop, since he was also rather agressive.

Best thing I came up with was sniping from a distance. He'd attack, and try to close, giving me a chance to either parry repost or counter to his shoulder or use second intention to sucker him into open up more target area. Attack, and he'd dance away or try to counter with a close of distance.

I also found that I could use his speed and agressiveness a bit, by change of tempo-- give him an opening, do a check retreat and step into him. He'd be flying on an attack and if I could counter the attack, he'd be off balance and vulnerable. Lower probability but you need a couple of actions to throw at folks like him to keep them guessing.

[PeterGustafsson]

Hi!


If you have a large strength advantage, would it be possible to do a lot of beat-bladework to tire him out in the beginning, and then have to deal with a much more tired and slower opponent?


Have a nice time!

Peter Gustafsson