Off-strip; Halt; physical-touch; touch counts

[luv2fence]

The rules seem to imply that a physical-touch can
be counted after Halt, in two cases below.

How is this actually called, Nationally or locally?

\Quote\
9. Crossing the limits of the strip
(a) Stopping the bout
t . 2 6
When a competitor crosses one of the lateral boundaries
of the strip with one or both feet, the referee must immediately call ‘Halt’.
If the fencer goes off the strip with both feet, the referee must
annul everything that has occurred after the boundary has been crossed,
except a touch received by the competitor who has crossed the boundary
even after he has crossed it, provided that this touch results
from a simple and immediate action. However, a touch scored by the
fencer who leaves the strip with one foot only is valid provided
that the action was started before the ‘Halt’.

If one of the competitors leaves the strip with both feet, only a touch made by the fencer who remains on the strip with at least one foot
can be counted valid, even in the case of a double touch.
\Close Quote\

[Mr Epee]

Some individual actions have two halts that occur at slightly different times.

[KD5MDK]

As far as I know, it is called as written.

[telkanuru]

There are actually only 3 situations where there is a "hard" halt, ie. no action that began before the halt is allowed as valid. These are 1) time elapsed, 2) a broken blade, and 3) both feet off the strip (but only applied to the fencer off the strip, his opponent may still score).

How it is called depends on the quality of the ref. Most blown calls in epee result from errors in what the halt was for, and if the action began before or after it. This is what I think makes epee directing harder than foil and sabre, in addition to the long lapses between actions. I know a very good (FIE B) sabre ref who will not touch epee directing with a 10 foot pole because of this.

[fencerchica]

Does a broken blade really always call for a hard halt? I was under the impression that, for example, if fencer X attacks and fencer Y parries (X's blade breaks here) then Y immediately ripostes valid within the tempo, the riposte for Y would count. Or if fencer Y beat-attacks fencer X, breaking X's blade and hitting valid within the same tempo, I would have thought that this would count as well.

[telkanuru]

Originally Posted by fencerchica

Does a broken blade really always call for a hard halt? I was under the impression that, for example, if fencer X attacks and fencer Y parries (X's blade breaks here) then Y immediately ripostes valid within the tempo, the riposte for Y would count. Or if fencer Y beat-attacks fencer X, breaking X's blade and hitting valid within the same tempo, I would have thought that this would count as well.

AFAIK no, for 2 reasons. First, it's dangerous. Second, the party with the broken blade is at a disadvantage, as they can neither score nor counter-parry, etc.

Of course, if the hit occurs and then the blade breaks, then the hit is valid.

[fencerchica]

The safety concern makes sense, but as far as one party being at a disadvantage, how would this differ from the situation of a disarm? In that case, one may definitely score upon a disarmed opponent as long as the touch is the result of an action begun within the same tempo. And such an opponent would likewise be unable to parry, etc. Is being disarmed different because the disarmed party would almost be regarded as being partly to blame?

[telkanuru]

Originally Posted by fencerchica

Is being disarmed different because the disarmed party would almost be regarded as being partly to blame?

Yes.



[extra]

[peet]

as in t.54, t.68, & t.73:

When a competitor against whom a touch has been registered has broken his blade, the touch must be annulled unless the breaking of the blade has occurred clearly after the touch has been registered

telkanuru's rationale above sounds about right to me.

HTH,
-p

[Be_Like_Water]

Originally Posted by telkanuru

There are actually only 3 situations where there is a "hard" halt, ie. no action that began before the halt is allowed as valid. These are 1) time elapsed, 2) a broken blade, and 3) both feet off the strip (but only applied to the fencer off the strip, his opponent may still score).

How it is called depends on the quality of the ref. Most blown calls in epee result from errors in what the halt was for, and if the action began before or after it. This is what I think makes epee directing harder than foil and sabre, in addition to the long lapses between actions. I know a very good (FIE B) sabre ref who will not touch epee directing with a 10 foot pole because of this.

No: if the one making the touch breaks his/her blade, the touch is allowed; if the one receiving the touch breaks his/her blade, any touch that occurs is annulled (via the USFA rules if someone is disarmed, a weapon malfunctions, or a component of the weapon breaks and the fencer is no longer able to defend him/herself "halt" is called and no touch is scored).

Bear in mind that "halt" is determined by the ACTION causing the "halt" rather than the vocal command--if for example fencer A attacks with fleche and subsequently is parried by fencer B, then Fencer A passes ("breaks the plane"), the "Halt!" is for breaking the plane: however, should fencer B begin his riposte prior to the passing, he would still make the touch (even though it is after the action causing the "halt").

Hope that helps

[telkanuru]

Originally Posted by Be_Like_Water

No: if the one making the touch breaks his/her blade, the touch is allowed; if the one receiving the touch breaks his/her blade, any touch that occurs is annulled (via the USFA rules if someone is disarmed, a weapon malfunctions, or a component of the weapon breaks and the fencer is no longer able to defend him/herself "halt" is called and no touch is scored).

I'm pretty sure I said that.

[Be_Like_Water]

Originally Posted by telkanuru

I'm pretty sure I said that.

Just a "broken blade scenario" clarification, not an insult to your post.

[luv2fence]

Am I interpreting correctly?

If my opponent steps off with 2 feet,
I can begin and end an attack.
There is no qualification for "continued action".

l2f

[telkanuru]

Originally Posted by luv2fence

Am I interpreting correctly?

If my opponent steps off with 2 feet,
I can begin and end an attack.
There is no qualification for "continued action".

l2f

If your opponent steps off the strip with both feet as you start a lunge and you hit him and he hits you, it is your point only.

If your opponent steps off the strip with one foot as you both lunge, and you both hit it's a double/ROW comes into play.

If your opponent steps off the strip with both feet and then you start a lunge, no touch.

[luv2fence]

telkanuru and others,

There does seem to be a "continuation" component,
which makes sense to me.

What if I am extending (counter attack or attack) and
he steps off with 2 feet. If I finish my arm extension,
but do not advance or lung, should my touch count.
(I have seen this happen many times.)

l2f

[telkanuru]

Originally Posted by luv2fence

telkanuru and others,

There does seem to be a "continuation" component,
which makes sense to me.

What if I am extending (counter attack or attack) and
he steps off with 2 feet. If I finish my arm extension,
but do not advance or lung, should my touch count.
(I have seen this happen many times.)

l2f

If, as you are extending, your opponent steps off the strip, and you hit him with that extension (without an advance, but a lunge would depend on the director seeing it properly), then it is your point. If he steps off the strip and then you extend and hit him, no point. It is the same as a normal halt, only he cannot score a point regardless after he is off the strip with both feet.

[Be_Like_Water]

Originally Posted by luv2fence

telkanuru and others,

There does seem to be a "continuation" component,
which makes sense to me.

What if I am extending (counter attack or attack) and
he steps off with 2 feet. If I finish my arm extension,
but do not advance or lung, should my touch count.
(I have seen this happen many times.)

l2f

It depends on whether the director considers the start of the extension OR the start of footwork the beginning of the attack. If I were directing, I would give you the touch as long as the action did not proceed in this fashion: "I'm extending...he just went off strip!...time to lunge!"

Many directors might give a card if the opponent appears as thought he/she is attempting to "dodge" a touch by stepping off strip, thus invalidating the touch.