When did the "classical" fencing movement begin?

[kalivor]

Hey all... Internet at work is out, so I haven't had time to keep up on all of this, but I do want to make one point.

If you read the AHF rules, you'll find no mention of RoW. What you will find, is Priority. It seems the same, but is different in application. In SF a good fencer will use RoW to his advantage and attack in an unsafe way - relying on the rules to protect him. At class, we say 'you never have a RIGHT to attack'. We train to avoid double hits. In competition, however, you have to have a way to adjucate the phrase so.. in the hopefully unlikely event of a double hit, the director can use the priority rules to see who was more at fault (both fencers are at some fault for stupid fencing already). You can hit without controlling the opponent's blade as long as you hit a full fencing time ahead, but most hits tend to be with the line closed. Like so much else, it's more a difference in the mindset of the fencers than how the rules are written. We do tend to start off AHF tournaments with the assumption that the fencers aren't feeling suicidal that day and will fence in a manner that respects the opponent's blade. That's really what we mean by classical form. You won't get a penalty for letting your back arm fall past a certain angle or for having your feet out of line, etc... we just want the fencers to respect the steel. If you don't want to fence that way, that's more than fine and we often point folks to various SF schools in the area if we think that's what the person is looking for.

The FIE rulebook doesn't have "Right of Way" either. It too has priority.

'Right of Way' is a useful expression because it's a traffic analogy that makes sense. If there's an accident (both fencers are hit), then one fencer is "at fault," so the point goes to the other fencer.

The difference (and I've said this before in a different post) is that in classical fencing, the result is even closer to the driving analogy -- if someone is about to run a stop sign, you stop to avoid an accident. In sport fencing, if someone's about to run a stop sign, you gun the engine and ram into them -- you have 'Right of Way' after all.

If anything, the analogy of RoW is even more applicable to CF than it is to SF.

[Mr Epee]

We train to avoid double hits.

When you say "we" do you mean all CF'ers?

Like so much else, it's more a difference in the mindset of the fencers than how the rules are written

A different mindset? Are you implying that Fencers wishing to try CF should submit themselves to Ludovico Rehabilitation Treatment?

[Drifter]

If you can't take a joke, even when followed by the appropriately chosen cartoon icon sticking its tongue out, then I am sorry and will cease conversing with you because you are taking this WAY too seriously.

Oh excellent! So how better to show the true meaning of CF than to show the exact traits that Mr. Epee was pointing out in the first few posts of this thread?

Ladies and Gentlemen I give you the, "You're being mean by not agreeing with me and feeding my ego so I'm going to take my ball and go home" post that inevitably comes from most typical CF types. Which of course was the primary reason they are CF types in the first place.

[Mr Epee]

What is Classical Fencing (Illustrated)!

This is a serious link... It is fairly recent because it does include pictures from the Athens Games!

[keith]

What is Classical Fencing (Illustrated)!

This is a serious link... It is fairly recent because it does include pictures from the Athens Games!

.... and while the rhetoric may be a bit predictable it does highlight the key difference of sport vs classical fencing.

[miyamoto]

What is Classical Fencing (Illustrated)!

This is a serious link... It is fairly recent because it does include pictures from the Athens Games!

Yeah, I know the guy. I've fenced his students. I was never that impressed.
He trained with Gaugler.

I love the description of the first photo they show. Deep Lunge? Desperately parries? Looks like two beginners who get too close, and one is so stiff in trying to parry...

I would also like to know what kind of audience CF fencing as described by Mr. Lurz attracts. He mentions the lack of spectators that SF gets, yet, I've heard of no tournaments, press releases, TV deals, etc. for CF.

Do CF'ers get spectators besides practitioners, friends, and family?

[cfaustus]

Oh excellent! So how better to show the true meaning of CF than to show the exact traits that Mr. Epee was pointing out in the first few posts of this thread?

Ladies and Gentlemen I give you the, "You're being mean by not agreeing with me and feeding my ego so I'm going to take my ball and go home" post that inevitably comes from most typical CF types. Which of course was the primary reason they are CF types in the first place.

I could care less about what you say to me. You notice I did not rebuke any of the comments you made direct at me. However, I do rebuke your flipant and obtuse tone and your ad hominem attacks. Any student of forensics will tell you that such arguments as you pose denote the loss of an argument. Also, I am more than happy to continue discussing the topic with others who are willing to do so in a reasoned manner (as many on this board do quite often). If you notice, I am simply saying that I do not wish to continue the discourse with you until you learn to hold a proper argument.

[Mr Epee]

Awww... how cute!

Has has your honor been satisfied, Maitre Faustus?

[oiuyt]

What is Classical Fencing (Illustrated)!

This is a serious link... It is fairly recent because it does include pictures from the Athens Games!

What I wonder is whether or not appropriate permission to use the images was sought from Serge Timacheff (who happens to post/read f.n).

-B :)

[Mr Epee]

Oiuyt,

You are so naive!

Classical Fencers live for honor. A Classical Fencer would never STEAL a photograph. I'm sure the proper rights have been secured by Maestro Lurch.

If orthopedic grips are dishonorable, then I assume that stealing would be straight out.

[cfaustus]

1) I am not a Maitre. I only make this point because I do not ever wish to be misrepresented.

2) As I regularly contribute to this forum I do not see how it can be argued that I sulk at home because some have 'been mean' to me.

3) Despite certain arrogant ignorami I run into, I have been persuaded by the excellent arguments of several SF members of this board to participate in SF again. First, they convinced me that I ought to engage in the activity to better understand it, rather than simply argue against it from perhaps an outdated conception of what SF was when I first practiced it years ago. Second, they proved that there are many SF fencers who are ladies and gentlemen with whom I would enjoy participating with. As a result, I have a much better understanding of the strengths. weaknesses, and differences between CF ans SF and I can hold up several SF fencers as excellent examples of sportsmanship in their game. Perhaps you could benefit from a similar comparative analysis. But you must first allow that you may have something to learn about CF and that you don't have all the answers.

4) Regarding 'Honor", I would, in fact, be curious as to your definition thereof. While you are at it, please tell us what your concept of Virtue is. (I am honestly quite interested and not being flippant... if you wish to ridicule this interest, well, so be it ...)

[Epee_Pox]

Wow, what a site.

Bad marketing strategy, though. I can totally appreciate what the guy's saying there, but when you get to the bottom it becomes apparent thay he's trying to get students to come to his school because of what he's not, instead of because of what he has to offer. Vitriol does not attract customers.

I still cannot comprehend the namecalling that goes on between CERTAIN classical and sport fencers. Come on, folks, they're different things. How hard is it to accept the fact that there is another way of doing it. Nobody's forcing you to do it their way, so stop taking offense at the fact that other people do things differently.

Seriously, what do you care?

[cfaustus]

- Bashing: who does it. CF vs. SF is an evergreen thread on this conference, but at least there's plenty of other stuff that shows up. It's really a minority subject when you think about it. Go over to the classicalfencing forum on Yahoo Groups, and you'll see that SF bashing shows up in the vast majority of posts. If I ever have a block of time to waste I'll do a statistical analysis of the posts there, but if the subject isn't "why SF stinks" there's almost no activity.

Which is actually one of the reasons I stopped participating in the CF mailgroup YEARS ago. Much of what I ran into on that group was NOT, in fact, representative of CF as I had been taught it.

[cfaustus]

I still cannot comprehend the namecalling that goes on between CERTAIN classical and sport fencers. Come on, folks, they're different things. How hard is it to accept the fact that there is another way of doing it. Nobody's forcing you to do it their way, so stop taking offense at the fact that other people do things differently.

Seriously, what do you care?

Bravo. I completely agree with you. Live and let live. What I do take umbrage with is when CF is misinterpretted. I seek simply to dispell misconceptions.

[Mr Epee]

Which is actually one of the reasons I stopped participating in the CF mailgroup YEARS ago. Much of what I ran into on that group was NOT, in fact, representative of CF as I had been taught it.

Wait, what?

you mean you've even huffed and swished off from CF groups, because they didn't match your vision of what CF should be?

I think I see a pattern here...

Shouldn't you be working on your lightsaber technique instead of screwing around here?

[cfaustus]

Where is the 'Ignore' function when you need it!

[drseudo]

Where is the 'Ignore' function when you need it!

Here ya go, big guy.

[Schiavona]

Shouldn't you be working on your lightsaber technique instead of screwing around here?

Now, that was just mean.

[Mr Epee]

No seriously... he wrote a long letter on another website about correct lightsaber technique... I couldn't make that up.

I was going to crosslink it, but didn't because it he wrote it under his real name. It wouldn't have been "honorable."

[jBirch]

Subtlety seems lost...

Give the guy a break Mr. Epee.

James.