Success without a coach

[Ordway]

I don't think it's possible to go from "knowing nothing" to "being a good fencer" without a coach in the middle somewhere. I coached for a couple of college clubs back in Maryland (one very briefly, one for a couple of years) and I definitely saw the problems of having fencers trying to get past "Go" without decent training to begin with.

My take on the coaching situation is that, once you're into the intermediate stage, it's not the end of the world if you wind up somewhere with no coach. That's what happened to me.

I've done reasonably well on my own; not as nearly well as I hope to do in the future, but well enough to call myself a serious competitive fencer and see progress. I got a 7th place at a Div III NAC a few years ago, and at Nationals I've been consistently in the top 1/3 to 1/4 in Div II (and once, 13th in IA). These aren't scintillating results by any means, but they're not bad, and certainly they beat hanging up my sabre because I didn't have a coach (or, for most of the past 5 years, any decent club to practice at, either).

So, I would never advocate going it alone for kicks, but it's not the road to doom by any means!

[SJB]

Do you have something helpful to contribute?

Chances are if you're somewhere with fencers there's a coach that's trained them.

The coach may not be a Maitre D'Armes or even a Prevot but he/she will still be a coach and will (hopefully) have the education and background to call themselves that.

If you were theoretically somewhere without a coach I would hazard the guess that there would probably be no fencers either.

At my club we do have athletes who drive in from small towns, usually an hour or sometimes more to attend training sessions. I admire their dedication especially versus those who quit training because a 20 minute drive is "too far".

In terms of being completely self-trained I doubt it would ever be successful at the competive level.

However, if you had no alternative there are a variety of resources, the Lukovich/Vass books among others, DVD footage of various world cups, and websites such as this.

Regardless though, I believe nothing is a substitute for an actual flesh and blood coach.

[Allen Evans]

Hadouken’s post that initiated this thread (which I won’t quote here) is great advice for the fencer who finds him or her self without a coach, either temporarily, or as an on going situation. Currently, as a coach, I find myself without a coach for me, and I am using much of the advice the Hadouken advocates above.

I was hoping, however, that someone would point out that this is great advice for someone WITH a coach, as well.

I can’t count the number of students who come to club and work hard, hit the lunging pad, fence every bout, ask questions of other fencers, and then start taking lessons from a coach and abandon all of that.

Don’t substitute the coach’s sweat for yours. It’s not nearly enough.

My last coach (and my best coach) was a man not much older than me. We worked hard in lessons, but it was a collaborative effort. He wanted me to ask questions, try things out on the strip, and bring back what didn’t work. He didn’t expect me to be a “fencing dummy”. If we disagreed on something, I tried his way first, and then came back and we did the analysis. His vote was always the tie-breaker between us but I made more progress by bringing MY skills to the table, as well as using his. He also expected me to arrive at lessons having done my homework and READY to learn something new – that meant having practiced the things we had done in the last lesson and ready to ask questions about what we were doing.

Anyone can fence, and we fencers put a big emphasis on fencing, without weight classes and with mixed-gender (at least at the local level) competition as a sport for “all ages and sizes”. But strength and speed DO matter, and no one ever performed poorly in a sport by being in better shape. When you do find a coach and you are taking lessons, being in good shape lets you take a longer lesson without falling down after you are done. No one learns well when they are tired.

Footwork? I have a better mantra than “Practice It”: Perfect It! The coach can help with mechanics and technique, but the one or two 20 minutes (or less) a week spent with the coach shouldn’t be spent drilling in the basics of the sport. You should be bringing those to the lesson without prompting. Having great (or at least comfortable) footwork will let you learn more and learn faster.

Out on the strip, everything counts. That includes the hows of fencing as well as the whys of fencing. A coach is good at looking only at the surface of your fencing. As they get to know you better, they might have some insights (some profound, most not) about WHO you are. The self-analysis that tells you who you are is your job. This introspection is something every top athlete works at every day.

Coaches give lessons, but that is only because the student continues to show up to practice, believe in their ability to get better and walk into the salle or competition knowing they belong there. Coaches can help with that, but they can’t GIVE it to you. Having a coach won’t motivate you after that first blush of excitement that you FINALLY have someone to train you. Stepping into the practice room or tournament is something the student has to do, on their own, over and over again.

[Bokken]

Apologies for the temporary derailment, but I won't let this pass without comment.

I don't think it's possible to go from "knowing nothing" to "being a good fencer" without a coach in the middle somewhere. I coached for a couple of college clubs back in Maryland (one very briefly, one for a couple of years) and I definitely saw the problems of having fencers trying to get past "Go" without decent training to begin with.

>sarcasm<
I agree. It does wonders for people trying to get past go when their 'coach' up and leaves one day sans explanation.
>/sarcasm<

Back on course, I agree with Holly that coaching is required in the beginning stages of a fencing career. I also agree that having no coach is better than having a bad one. I wonder, though, what qualifies one as a coach. Is it simply being a better fencer? Does one have to produce excellent competitive results to justify teaching others, or does the ability to motivate and bring out the best in someone else hold weight as well?
Does one need some certification to 'prove' that one is a coach? For that matter, how much value is placed in a piece of paper, be it an academic degree or a skill level certification?

Obviously, in an ideal situation you have access to an excellent competitive fencer who is also an excellent teacher/motivator (also known as "a coach." However, it seems like DFP is bereft of that option for whatever reason.

DFP, I really like the quotes you've assembled and I'd like to share one with you:
"Do not seek to follow in the footsteps of the Masters. Seek instead what they sought." (Zen master Baisho, IIRC)
Fencing.net is an incredible resource, as are the people on this discussion board (Yes, everyone). Practice, practice, and perfect. Refine everything you learn, and test it in the bouts against different people. Apply the Scientific Method and be ruthless about it. When you're at competition, observe what other fencers do and analyze.

It's possible to teach oneself, but a teacher is required to demonstrate the fundamentals. At least, that's my opinion.

[Mr Epee]

What would it take to get Allen branded with "Fencing Expert" credentials?

He is a tremendous contributor/resource... and well informed.

[Ordway]

Apologies for the temporary derailment, but I won't let this pass without comment.

>sarcasm<
I agree. It does wonders for people trying to get past go when their 'coach' up and leaves one day sans explanation.
>/sarcasm<

I'm not sure if you're saying this as a general comment, or, since your profile lists you as being from Maryland, whether you're someone I knew and are commenting on my coaching experiences there?

At the first one (a very small college club), after just a couple of months I found that my intended approach just didn't mesh well with what the fencers wanted to be doing. Since I was doing the whole thing informally anyway, I didn't see the point in continuing on with something that wasn't working for me or them. I don't recall how well I communicated my decision to not fence there any more, but I do remember that attendance was pretty spotty, so certainly it's possible that some club members were left in the dark inadvertently. I certainly hope nobody is silently holding a grudge after what, 6 years?

The second club I coached for, I was "officially" an assistant coach (even got a teeny weeny stipend). I worked with them for about 2 years before the long drive late at night to get to practice started getting to be too much with my work schedule.

Anyway, this is derailing the thread further, but I hate to think someone out there is mad at me for not continuing the two months' worth of attempted coaching that I inflicted on their club years ago! If that's what's bothering you, Bokken, let me say that I apologize for any miscommunication (or lack of communication) at the time.

In general, I'm a big believer in speaking up right away if you (general "you") have any sort of issue with a coach or teammate - better to get it out in the air rather than brood over it.

[Craig]

What would it take to get Allen branded with "Fencing Expert" credentials?

He is a tremendous contributor/resource... and well informed.

I agree.

Done.

[random fencer p]

There it is again, the always fence some better than you and you get better comment. If everyone strived for this no one would fence anyone. I know it wasn't said as an absolute but it is possible to learn from fencing those who are a 'lesser fencer' than yourself. Back away from the idea that you always have to fence someone better than you. It just isn't true.

[broncofencer]

There it is again, the always fence some better than you and you get better comment. If everyone strived for this no one would fence anyone. I know it wasn't said as an absolute but it is possible to learn from fencing those who are a 'lesser fencer' than yourself. Back away from the idea that you always have to fence someone better than you. It just isn't true.

That is not really what is being said here. (your point is correct though)However, a lot of fencers espcially beginners don't want to fence people who are much better because they lose badly(15-2). All experience is good experience however I don't think it needs to be said to fence those who you can beat you'll usually want to do that. the hard part is getting those people you can beat easily to fence you.

[broncofencer]

If you were theoretically somewhere without a coach I would hazard the guess that there would probably be no fencers either.

Actually a lot of college clubs start this way its mearly a group of fencers (with some levelof experience) that get together because they like to fence and begin to recruit members and teach them to fence in order to have differnet opponents there is no coach only a one person or maybe a few that have taken some amount of lessons somewhere and are passing on their very
limited knowledge to others.

This is the way I started I was taught by someone with less than 2 years experience and no competitve experience. I was one of those instructors the next year. Did we usually finish at the bottom when we started competing? Oh YES but on ocasion we finished above fencers with coaches and even managed to place in a few tournaments at the local level. Highly successful NO but successful yes.


That being said I don't suggest this route by any means but it can be done if it has to be.

[Ordway]

That is not really what is being said here. (your point is correct though)However, a lot of fencers espcially beginners don't want to fence people who are much better because they lose badly(15-2). All experience is good experience however I don't think it needs to be said to fence those who you can beat you'll usually want to do that. the hard part is getting those people you can beat easily to fence you.

I'd put a slight spin on it and say that the most productive thing is to fence someone who is one or two levels above you. If you fence someone who is much, much better than you are, chances are that you won't really understand what happened to you. If you fence someone who's better, but not radically better, you have more of a chance of understanding what's going on and learning from it.

(I'm a teacher - at least, that's one of the hats I wear - and it's well known that the most learning happens when students are given tasks that force them to stretch, but aren't totally out of their competency.)

It's only in the past couple of years that I started being able to really learn from fencing As and Bs. But I freely admit that I'm a slow (but persistent!) learner, so mileage undoubtedly varies.

[D+F+P=Hadouken!]

Ok, I'm going to reccomend certain things to read or research as I come along them. You may or may not find them useful.

I was browsing a copy of football for dummies (by Howie Long and John Czarnecki) and it had a part that I found particularly useful. It was part VI: Staying in the game, pages 305-330. It has interesting things about physical, mental and motivational upkeep. The quote that I found really good was something along the lines of "You can't control alot of things in sports, but you can choose how hard you work, and good things happen when you work hard" and "Quitting is the easiest act of all." Its really true. I would reccomend that anyone checks it out from the library and atleast reads that section.

[RebelFencer]

I agree that sometimes you get stuck in a situation where you don't have a coach (In DFP's case, I think he has yet to fully tap his coach ie. constant lessons). But for people who genuinely do not have a coach, this is excellent advice. Always ask why you're getting beaten, or why people are getting certain touches on you and do your best to correct it. heh, getting good coaching has completely messed up my schedule. I work in a box factory from 11pm-7am sleep from 8am-4pm and fence from 5pm-8pm...then repeat. Oh what fun!

[LUDICROUS]

I'm pretty much in the same situation as DFP. I'm 16, don't have the money for regular coaching. I've been job hunting alot, to no avail. But today in fact I had a job interview - Hopefully they'll hire me! (A movie theatre.)

Moral of the story: Money is often at the root of problems. Solution: Job hunting!

Otherwise, what this thread talks about is great shizzle for someone who doesn't have much access to a coach.