Coaches and Kids (was politics)

[Mo]

<<UNREAL! I think this coach should be shot at dawn
and not offered his last meal or cig. Arcon>>
As a fencing parent and not an actual fencer I would like to know what you guys think about choosing a coach and criteria you use.
What do you look out for?
When do you know it is time to bail??
I feel like now after being in a couple clubs, my kids are now in Fencing Nirvana. I too watched my kids having to deal with someone psychotic who should not be around kids or people for that matter.
The one thing I learned is to be very wary if the club has policies that tend to exclude the parents. One good example was the urging of parents in the ex club not to travel with their kids. This sent off warning signals in my head.
I never want my kids to look back on their childhood and see it as a fencing blur with no time for recreation, only an endless stream of meets.
Our present club encourages recreation and stresses the fact that there is time. Time for kids to grow and time for kids to be kids.
How do other parents cope and find a balance??

[Zelda]

As some who started fencing AFTER I reached my majority, I cant really comment. But I would like to make the following comments based on observations made at my club back home in Brissy.
1. Kids who want to achieve will fence, regardless of coaches/parents/external influences.
2. Parents, although having the best intentions in the world, can sometimes be DAMN annoying.
3. If a parent wants a child to compete, make sure the kid wants too, if they dont talk to the parent.
4. In Australia, there is only really 2 interstate competitions a year, the U20's in Jan which I cant remember ANY parents going too (they basically rent out a Halls of Residence and bung everyone in there with supervision.) And the Interschool U16 champs in June...parents abound apparently.

I guess what I am trying to say is that if the kids are happy, the parents should be. There should be an open line between parents and coaches, neither should be afraid of approaching the other with problems or concerns. There should also be someone around a parent can talk to if the coach is busy, who can be trusted to pass on the parents concerns to the coach (In my old club that was me...)
Sorry for rambling, but its something I feel passionate about.

[The Crazy Wacker]

[quote]Originally posted by Zelda:
<strong> 1. Kids who want to achieve will fence, regardless of coaches/parents/external influences.
2. Parents, although having the best intentions in the world, can sometimes be DAMN annoying.
3. If a parent wants a child to compete, make sure the kid wants too, if they dont talk to the parent.
</strong><hr></blockquote>

I second this... 100$ true.

[Peach]

I chose my daughter's coach (and stuck with him for her from 10 years old until she went to college) (actually he's still sort of her coach) because

1. he wasn't particularly affected by her moodiness
2. incorporated a lot of games into his curriculum
3. encouraged kids to compete when he felt they were ready, but de-emphasized performance over participation in the beginning (and though he always had high expectations for his fencers he never abused or dropped fencers who didn't perform)
4. seemed to like children and to understand them
5. handled parents pretty well and backed off the ones who were piranhas
6. took fencing seriously
7. understood how to teach
8. kept trying new things
9. had a strong grasp of educational psychology
10. took his students seriously as people
11. would talk to me and my husband
12. didn't work the kids too hard (they're not miniature adults--this is one of my pet peeves, coaches who take an adult program and force-feed it to children) but expected them to work
13. taught children to take responsibility for themselves
14. and was liked by his students (my daughter referred to him as her third parent) but didn't play god.

It was nice that his club had good competitive results but I probably would have kept her with him even if he didn't send kids any further than club novice tournaments. Fencing was something my daughter liked which became an important life experience.

Eventually, he became my coach as well, and I just came back from a Louisville where he had several adult fencers and several college fencers who began with him and continue to treat him as their coach at national events, and something like 12 or 13 youth fencers competing, plus a dozen or more parents along for the ride. He encourages parents to come.

As for club politics, he is definitely an "alpha wolf" who likes to be in charge, and it is not always easy to work for him if you don't understand that, but oddly enough he prefers his coaches to be strong, independent, and opinionated (as long as they do the main things he wants them to do!).

I heard some kids in the elevator in Louisville discussing sneaking out to visit with friends from another club; if their coach found out, they said, he would be furious because they might give away their "words" by which I assume he means code signals for what they do. That's just ultimately self-defeating. Part of the enjoyment of competing is the kids from everywhere you get to know. Some of them are still my daughter's friends.

[desolationdiva]

As I mentioned in a previous posting under "club politics," I was once a top junior fencer, and I've had my share of awful coaching experiences. Most of my peers on the national level also had some terrible coaching experiences. It seems that the majority of the top youth and junior coaches tend to focus only on winning and are willing to do just about anything to achieve results: This includes preventing their students from engaging in other recreational activities, driving them w/o mercy, and ultimately using cruel forms of psychological abuse. (While not all of the top junior coaches do this, I can name numerous that do.)

My parents were (for a long time) relatively unaware that my coach was so cruel to his students. However, there were many warning signs for parents to look out for. At my club, parents were discouraged from participating in their child's fencing and were asked never to come to tournaments. When my coach did speak with parents, he generally only had negative things to say about their child (despite the fact that I and other kids in our club were on the world team). It was not uncommon for parents to remove their children from my club because either (1) they were asked to leave by the coaches (for various absurd reasons like they refused to send their child to an extra tournament), or (2) they felt that my coach was being too hard on his fencers and coaching them on purely pejorative terms. These are all obvious signs of trouble, and if you (as a parent) witness this, then talk with your child (who may, out of fear of quitting fencing defend his or her coach), and speak with other parents.

There a few bad seeds out there, but most coaches (while they have their flaws) are willing to work with parents and do want to create a nice environment for junior fencing. The problem is that most top national coaches live their lives to get results, and they view their own success and reputation through the fencing skills and results of their fencers. This correlation inevitably leads to a massive amount of pressure being placed on children and juniors. While pressure alone can be difficult for a kid to handle (it is clearly a necessary evil that comes with being one of the best), but sometimes the pressure seeps over into being mean, unrelenting, and unsympathetic. Rather than ignoring it, the USFA and the Olympic committee should actively be working to alleviate this pandemic problem with junior coaching in this country. If we want our adult fencers to be competitive at the world level, we have to first keep our junior fencers fencing in the competitive arena (without burning them out and having them quit).

If you are a concerned parent talk with others about your issues and concerns—talk to your child, talk to other parents, and talk to the coaches. If you really believe that your coach is not a healthy influence on your child, then contact other clubs (local or national). If your child is a top fencer in his or her age group, it is likely that there will be other top coaches and clubs that would be interested in talking with you about your situation…and possibly coaching your child. If you have any questions for me about my own experience or about the “bad” and “good” top junior coaches that I know about, then send me a message. Good luck you all, and happy fencing!

[Gav]

Mo. I understand your concerns about a coach who discourages parents from travelling with their kids, but if the guy is trustworthy then it shouldn't be a problem. Our club is hosted by a council organisation who do checks on potential instructors (fencing, swimming whatever) so I think that in that environment kids would be pretty safe. BTW I was reading a little between the lines on this comment if I'm wrong about your concerns then sorry.

On the parent v coach front. Yeah, I see what you mean. A lot of parents want to be there for their kids (lets face it ALL should) but this is not always beneficial for their sporting future - especially if you are not part of that sport yourself. I would say that it would be better to talk to the coach and your child about how things are going. Don't intervene in the coaches training methods unless you are 100% sure that what is happening is negative.

As far as choosing a coach... that's potentially difficult and possibly a midfield. Like it or not Fencing is a minority sport you are not necessarily going to get a choice. But it sounds like you do and that's good. As you aren't a fencer yourself you obviously can't draw on your own experiences when it comes to judging a coach (personality problems aside). Try and find out about the coach. Did they fence competitive in the past? If they did - how well did they do? If they didn't well... there's limits to what they can teach. Ask other fencers (at local tourney's, clubs etc). Fencing is such a small community that they generally know who the [local] good ones are.

[swordsen]

Hmm I can't help but think that a coach who doesn't try and get the parnets involved is a coach who isn't going to have a lot of long term students.

Desolation, I have known a few coaches like that. They boggle my mind. As do the people who keep going back for more from them....

[haggis]

A coach who doesn't want parents at competitions or training is a coach who has failed to grasp that it's the parents that pay! Young fencers, as Peach said, are not miniature adults. They need more sympathetic handling, more play or work disguised as play. The parents should be encouraged to be part of the club, even if they know little or nothing about fencing, they will almost certainly know more about their kids than the coach ever can. For young fencers, the parents pay for classes, lessons, equipment and travel to competitions. They usually ferry the kids to and from training and will hear about why their children enjoy fencing and whether they want to compete, improve and progress up national rankings or whether they are happy to fence just because it's fun. A coach that ignores or tries to prevent a parent's involvement is turning his back on potentially his and the club's best ally - without their support club has no young fencers.

[Catlady]

Greetings,
I started fencing as an adult and as of yet don't have children, but here's my advice. I think you probably want to pick a coach for your child the same way you would pick a coach or teacher for any other activity. Some people are good with kids, some are not, even if they may be otherwise nice people although I don't think I could classify the horror stories I've heard on here to be about nice people. Anyway,to reiterate what Peach said, kids are not just smaller adults. No matter how intelligent they are their attention span is shorter than an adults, so what is not an unreasonable demand to make of an adult, or for that matter another child, may be too long for a particular child. While they're young and have plenty of energy, they're also still developing physically, so working them too hard can sometimes do permanent damage. A good coach should be aware of these and other factors and adjust accordingly.


The best ways to tell if coach is right for you are probably first, find out from other parents whose kids work with the same coach what their experiences have been, second watch the coach interact with your child during a lesson. I'd say do both, kids, like adults, all are different. It's possible for someone to be a great coach and have lots of satisfied students, with satisfied parents, but still not be the right person for your child. IMHO sometimes personalities can make a difference. In addition, I might ask if it would be all right if I watched the coach work with another student before I had my child work with them, just to be sure.If the coach doesn't want parents to watch, I'd would say be afraid, be very afraid. Chances are they're doing something that they don't want you to see. I might also consider asking about their history, e.g. where have they taught before, have they worked with kids before, etc. I don't think a legitimate coach would mind answering these questions. Granted, I wouldn't necessarily eliminate someone without a lot of experience in coaching, or in coaching kids, after all everyone has to start somewhere, and it's possible they'll be great, but if you do find someone who has lots of experience, including experience working with kids, there's a better chance that they're the right coach for you. I know the coach we hired worked with the youth team in Ukraine, where he's from, and you can tell by the way he interacts with the kids, both on and off strip, that while he expects them to work hard and pay attention, he cares for his students and they care for him.

I don't have any coaching experience in fencing, with kids or adults, but if I were a coach, I would want the parents to watch. The parent should be an integral part of the team, and not just because they pay the fees and transport the kids. The parents know the kids best, and it's often important to have their back up when you want the child to do something. My only exceptions would be parents who interfere with my teaching, e.g. they tell me how to do the strictly fencing related parts of my job, or they are overly distracting to the student while I'm trying to teach, or if they are interfering by giving advice to their child that is contrary to mine, I might let the parents be more involved in the teaching if they were somewhat experienced at fencing themselves, but ultimately it's better, I think, to have one "boss" in any area, and if I'm the coach, that needs to be me. Though, I wouldn't mind their input on how the child is dealing with the training and tournament schedule, --like I said, they know their child best and spend more time with them than I do, so they're better able to gauge if their child is overwhelmed/and or over loaded-- or how best to motivate their child, after all we all know that not all kids respond the same way to the same tactics, so to speak. In general, I would want parents to be able to come to me with their concerns. If the kid is always complaining about how they don't like me and fencing, I would want to know so I could do something about it, e.g. change the way I teach that particular child, or possibly help them consider if they really want to continue fencing--I hope that I could convince them they did, but ultimately if it's not right for them, then they should do something else, that's true for anything.

Another thing, listen to your kids. If necessary ask them about fencing. Just in general, it's good to be involved in what your kids are doing, and show that you support them. This leaves the lines of communication open if something does go wrong, and if you're in contact with your child, if something is seriously going wrong, you'll catch it sooner. That said, as with any other teacher, if your child complains about how strict the coach is, don't worry. I know that the kids at my club always complain about how tough the woman who runs the youth clinics is, but I think if you really asked them if they liked her and thought she was a good coach, they'd all say yes. Like I said, the same goes for the head coach, he doesn't stand for anyone, child or adult, goofing off, but the universal opinion is that he's a wonderful coach.
There are different philosophies on how seriously students should be taking things. My opinion is that while you need to work hard if you're serious, it doesn't mean that it can't be enjoyable as well. For me, simply fencing is fun,I know many younger fencers who think the same, but I think in general you can work games into your teaching in any subject and it doesn't hurt anything. Of course older kids are better able to understand that in order to reap the rewards, I'm thinking teenagers here for the most part, e.g. looking good technically, and winning bouts, you need to occassionally endure some hard work and the work isn't always a lot of fun and they should be held to a higher standard than younger kids. I know people who think that if you're serious, you might as well get used to working hard and being serious. I don't know that either philosophy is wrong. I think, what philosophy you'd like your chosen coach to have depends a lot on your opinion on the subject.

That's about all I have to say for now. I hope I've made some sense and perhaps been a bit of help.

[Maestro]

If I may, my experience comes from being a Scoutmaster for 6 years... If a youth (boys are my better experience here even though I have three girls) has parents who are willing to help and modivate and when necessary prod, then the youth will excel greater and faster than those that don't. Now let me clear up what a parents should be willing to do and not do... Help their child grow with the sport, encourage them to progress, be their as support when the child needs it. Forcing is a terrible thing because sooner or later with teenage boys they will push back... That's just how they are wired. Giving them false goals to exceed, i.e. get a drivers licence when they earn a "C" or some crazy crap like that should be outlawed. They learn to excel for the wrong reasons... A coach should be willing to work with the parents. If a coach doesn't have the type of style that the parents like then they should look elsewhere. If this coach is the only option then they should try talking to the coach and let him know of their concerns. In the end its all about a game, and therefore should be fun. Once the fun is lost so is the interest. And from I gather from this board, the interest of the sport is the last thing that we should be loosing.

[Link14]

[quote]Originally posted by desolationdiva:
<strong>Rather than ignoring it, the USFA and the Olympic committee should actively be working to alleviate this pandemic problem with junior coaching in this country.</strong><hr></blockquote>

The USFA Coaches College spends a lot of time teaching successful coaching methods including building strong relationships with the parents and athletes, motivation techniques, nutrition and lots more. Not sure what all the Olympic committee does but at Coaches College they discuss the Olympic Coaching Ethics, seems pretty strict.

[desolationdiva]

Link 14,
The fact remains: Many of the top junior fencing coaches in this nation mistreat their students, ignore parents, and ultimately drive their top fencers to quit before they reach adulthood. The failure of coaches to retain students is a serious problem for US fencing. The best example of this problem is probably women's epee. If you were to look at the top cadet and junior women's epee fencers over the last 10 years or so, nearly all of them have ultimately quit before becoming top adult fencers. Despite this problem, the very coaches that have failed to retain top fencers (and who have been capricious and cruel to their own fencers) are consistently decorated by the USFA and Olympic committee as being up and coming junior coaches. These coaches always have top juniors, but never top adults...Why? I think that this is a question that the USFA and the Olympic Committee should be more vocally addressing.

I agree with you, Link 14, that it is good that “Coaches College spends a lot of time teaching successful coaching methods including building strong relationships with the parents and athletes, motivation techniques, nutrition and lots more.” However, if you were to research the backgrounds of many of the very coaches that are involved in teaching Coaches College, you would find that they belong to the “exclusive” group of national coaches who seem to have serious problems with keeping their top junior fencers (and they treat their young fencers quite poorly). Positive actions (such as retaining fencers and not treating them like crap), say much more than simple words and classes. Take some time to observe coaches such as these interact with their students at national tournaments, and perhaps then you will grasp the gravity of the problem. Anyway, I hope that this situation does improve, and that the United States will manage to successfully keep her current top junior fencers…so that they can go on to excel internationally as adult fencers. The future has yet to be determined, perhaps if the USFA took a more vocal role in getting coaches to treat their students better (and refrained from showering praise on coaches who are notorious for having top students quit fencing), then the present situation would improve. Only time will tell.

[Purple Fencer]

Well...I think the issue applies to adults beign coached as well as kids.

You should see Derek Cotton running a lesson. The guy takes absolutely NO BS from anyone, but if you show that you;re working at it, you get a bit less sarcasm from him. He seems to have found a balance between dropping the hammer on his students (young or old) and discouraging them.

One thing I've noticed about him - regardless of the student's age or experience - is he is VERY honest about things being done right or wrong, and his people respond to that.

Some parents have also given their kids to him because he DOES play the discipline angle a lot, and it keeps the kids focused. it's a tricky balancing act, tho.

[Eva1187]

wow desolationdiva you sound like you are carrying around a lot of bitterness. What is your grudge? If fencing or at least coaches have been so horrible for you, why do you want to be involved in the sport again? Won't you see all these coaches again that you say are so bad?

[desolationdiva]

I do not think that my postings reflect "a lot of bitterness," rather I was discussing an issue that is a very serious problem for the fencing community. Just because I raised a provocative and pungent topic, does not mean that I am being spiteful. There is big difference between criticism and calumny. During my postings, I have made a point never to mention names, I never lost my cool and disparaged anyone’s character, and I never even recommended the possibility of any real reprimanding of these coaches. The only thing that I’ve tried to do is to isolate the issue (of coaching and the retention of junior fencers) as a problem, explain why it is so essential to try to work to ameliorate the situation, and recommend that the USFA vocally discuss the this issue as a critical systemic problem in American fencing. If the USFA wants to have the most successful world team possible, then it is certainly in its best interests to retain its top junior fencers (so that they can go on to become top adults and raise the overall level of competition in this country).

I would not describe myself as harboring a particular “grudge” against anyone. There are people in the fencing world that I no longer hold in as high esteem as I once did. But part of living and growing up is learning whom one likes and whom one can trust. Fencing is a very competitive sport, and at its highest levels, there are outrageous incidents of nasty “politics,” backstabbing, and other such issues. We all know this. Most fencers have numerous stories (and know a multitude of rumors) about outrageous incidents, unscrupulous officials, and nasty fencers. (Of course, many of these stories and rumors are not true, but the point is: Foul things do happen within our tightly knit little community.) Mentioning that some coaches are mean to juniors should not come as a gross surprise to most fencers, and (just because this criticism, by its very nature, has negative undertones, it does not mean that I am bitter or anything like that. One can consider a person (or a group of people) to be of a questionable character or have suspect methods of coaching, yet still manage to refrain from harboring a grudge against this person.

I believe that you have misunderstood my postings and their intent. The impetus behind contributing to this forum was not to disparage anyone’s character (nor was it to talk about how “horrible” coaches have been to me), it was to talk about a problem in fencing and propose that it be more frequently discussed.

Finally, just because a person has dealt with mean or capricious coaches, certainly does not mean that he or she should quit fencing. That would be really sad. As I noted above, the main purpose of my postings was to point out why good fencers quit at young ages and to suggest that the USFA try to lessen this trend. If I were to completely quit fencing, then I would truly be a hypocrite (which I also am not) because that is exactly what I hope to help prevent. Fencing is a wonderful sport. I’ve been fencing for 13 years (since I was 10), and I do not intend to utterly stop fencing. In fact, I visited this website because I’m interested in starting to seriously train (and perhaps even compete) once again. I deeply care about fencing in this country, and I would like to see it continue to improve and blossom in the years to come. Best wishes, and happy fencing.

[Eva1187]

Desolationdiva
What about the fencers just don't want to fence anymore and went on to do other things. When fencers leave clubs to go onto college, are the coaches still to blame when their past students quit. I guess I must have misuderstood your motivation for posting, because it's pretty easy to figure out who your talking about.

[desolationdiva]

Eva, you totally have a point. There will always be fencers that “just don't want to fence anymore and went on to do other things.” I’m not blaming coaches for instances of their fencers going on to college and getting sidetracked by other things. I’m sorry if you thought that I was. I am only trying to address the issue of coaches treating juniors poorly (yelling at them, putting them down, alienating parents) and ultimately driving the students to quit fencing. (There is a huge difference between a demanding coach who gives constructive criticism and a coach that is predominately negative and uses disparaging language when addressing young fencers.) This is a serious problem. I know many people, from several different coaches and clubs from across the country, who quit because they just got tired of dealing with this type of abuse. I really am not talking about a particular person or coach; I’m trying to talk about a larger systemic issue in American fencing. I do not know whom exactly you thought I was talking about…but if I was alluding to a person, then it was merely one of many (and it was no intention to single any person out as being awful or anything like that). I was just trying to make the point that it’s an issue that should be talked about; I was trying to do that without mentioning specific examples or blaming particular people.

I have faith that this problem can improve—and that was ultimately my motivation for posting. In fact, I even have some faith that many of the negative coaches (if they were made more aware of the issue by a more open dialogue about it) could and would try to pay more attention to how they were treating their fencers…and thus retain more junior fencers. Anyway, thanks for giving me the opportunity to clarify myself. I would hate to think that people would interpret what I said as being merely bitter ravings or as being pointed at anyone coach. I really have tried my best to avoid either, and I have never been known as a particularly bitter person. Thanks for the criticism and best of luck to you.

[Zelda]

Diva, I must say I have been impressed by the maturity and presentations of your arguements. They are obviously written by someone who has personally experienced what you speak about. I personally can not comment on the situation as I do not live in the US, however, I think that the problem you highlight is a problem and people must do something about it.

[Eva1187]

Diva, thanks for the reply. You obviously feel passionate about this subject. Welcome back to fencing and Colorado.

[Link14]

Ditto on Eva's post. If you ever feel like just doing a little recreational fencing, come on up to Fort Collins. You'll have to give me a yell though, so I can gather up our 4 epeest . I personally stink at epee, but make an excellent pin-cushion.

Now if you want to talk about snowboarding... <img src="graemlins/jester.gif" border="0" alt="[Jester]" />