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Gav · 07-11-2002, 05:57 PM

I was watching Wimbledon the other day and a thought occurred to me. People are always banging on about how fencing is an unsuitable sport for television because of it's unfathomable rules and archaic etiquette. However Wimbledon (and Tennis in general) has all of these traits in spades and still popular.

It occerred to me that rather than have one 15 point DE fight that the fencers could have 1 set of 3 5 point fights. The winner decided on the balance of the wins. The format still allows the individuals to develop their strategy as the match progesses, and also prevents 1 fencer running away with a huge lead.

It's a minor thought, but I thought that it could add an extra dimension to the game. What does the board think?

edew · 07-11-2002, 06:13 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Gav:
I was watching Wimbledon the other day and a thought occurred to me. People are always banging on about how fencing is an unsuitable sport for television because of it's unfathomable rules and archaic etiquette. However Wimbledon (and Tennis in general) has all of these traits in spades and still popular.

It occerred to me that rather than have one 15 point DE fight that the fencers could have 1 set of 3 5 point fights. The winner decided on the balance of the wins. The format still allows the individuals to develop their strategy as the match progesses, and also prevents 1 fencer running away with a huge lead.

It's a minor thought, but I thought that it could add an extra dimension to the game. What does the board think?<hr /></blockquote>Been done. For a while in the early 90s, direct elimination bouts were best two-out-of-three five touch bouts. The Duel In The Desert uses best three-out-of-five five-touch bouts. Any more and it gets boring.

Doesn't help one way or another, at least not for improving the viewability of the sport.

Gav · 07-11-2002, 06:17 PM

Cool, that answers my thoughts. It must have been a format that was on the way out when I started (93ish) - I don't recall seeing the format locally.

I still like the idea. Oh well.

[ 07-11-2002, 09:27 PM: Message edited by: Gav ]

edew · 07-11-2002, 06:41 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Gav:
Cool, that answers my thoughts. It must have been a format that was on the way out when I started (93ish) - I don't recall seeing the format locally.

I still like the idea. Oh well.

<hr /></blockquote>We still use it for Youth-12 and Youth-10 events. I believe the 1992 Olympics was run with the best two-out-of-three for the direct elimination. It was sort of the interim between 10-touch bouts and the current 15-touch bouts.

Apparently, people didn't exactly like it.

Gav · 07-11-2002, 06:56 PM

Any thoughts on why they didn't like it? A match to 15 allows the leader to gain an unassailable position (especially in Epee where doubles count). Spectacular turnarounds are rare [but not unheard of] and a 'best of' approach would stop that from happening.

afc fencer · 07-11-2002, 11:10 PM

When i was a youth-12 fencer i hated best 2out of 3 format. With that format the loser could end up scoring more touches then the victor.
A person could still gain a huge lead in the best-two-out-of-three comps. A comeback is not spectacular as it is in a 15 touch bout.

[ 07-12-2002, 02:12 AM: Message edited by: afc fencer ]

Mo · 07-11-2002, 11:10 PM

We still use it for Youth-12 and Youth-10 events. I believe the 1992 Olympics was run with the best two-out-of-three for the direct elimination. It was sort of the interim between 10-touch bouts and the current 15-touch bouts.

Two out of three point bouts can go by even FASTER than a fifteen point bout. Someone can win 10-0 instead of 15-0.
They use them in the younger age brackets because they are over quicker and not as long and stressful. Rarely do they get to one each.
There is a great disparity of levels in the 10 and Under and 12 and Under age groups. Some kids can get creamed 5-1 5-0. I imagine with countries that have kind of cruddy fencers but made it due to the size, (say maybe Scottland vs US)
The best idea would be to have a couple rounds of pools instead of just the direct elimination for seating and battle it out there. Then when people got to the finals they would be exciting due to the quality of the fencers in them.
Right now as I understand it the entire meet in the O's is direct elimination. Each country can send three fencers in a weapon so say if Russia has 6 World ranked fencers they can only send three of them. So the competition is not that fierce or too fierce.
The big kid in the house says there is nothing like a bout that gets to 14-14, the suspense can be a killer. (especially to a mother) I've seen fencers come back from impossible odds and win. One time the big kid was in a bout losing 14-7. He came back to 14-14 and then lost the last point on an "un lamp." Damn....

afc fencer · 07-11-2002, 11:16 PM

Their is a video my coach shows every year of a world cup in cuba i think. A fencer was down something like 14-1. He brought it back up to 14-14 and then lost.

Gav · 07-11-2002, 11:28 PM

Yeah, but comebacks of that nature are rare (specially in Epee, "Oops! You walked on my point that'll be a double - cheers!").

My thought where along the lines of you lose the 1st one 5-0 but can pull it back in the subsequent matches - providing you get over the psychologiclal barrier. Whereas with a 15'er yo can be 5 behind and it 'feels' like a huge mountain. It was [as I pointed out merely a thought - I wasn't aware that the juniors used this format].

We use the multiple bout format in training. It gets you used to the 5 point bout and allows you to analyse your tactic between rounds against particular opponents. We don't ususually have the space/time for multiple leg DE-style matches. If we do use multiple bouts they're 2, 3 minute with 1 minute in between (enough time for advice if your stuck).

A variation is to have each fencer supported by a 'coach' (actual or not) who advises the fencer on what they think they should do. Can be interesting.

Boo Boo · 07-12-2002, 08:44 AM

In the UK, youth fencers use "first to 10" DEs (and not 3 sets of 5 hits).

Boo
(who spent far too much time refereeing at National and Local youth competitions this past year 8-)).

135711 · 07-13-2002, 03:37 PM

i think it should be left as is. the format isn't bad for 'television'. why it needs to be televised is beyond me. if feel the sport is adequately marketed. however, for those of you who don't mind the idea of performing for a bunch of yahoos under a bunch of hot lamps, with a bunch of other yahoos screaming at you for being a jerk and not seeing that fleche coming: all you need is an educated announcer to explain the details 'in soto voice' for the audience. [this was done for golf and can be done again for another sport]. but i think it may deprive the sport of many good atheletes who don't like the idea of performing. and as an aside, poker isn't on the air either, and it remains an enduring game with flushes, and full houses and everything.

afc fencer · 07-13-2002, 05:57 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by 135711:
i and as an aside, poker isn't on the air either, and it remains an enduring game with flushes, and full houses and everything.<hr /></blockquote>Nope poker does get airtime. Thier was a game on espn2 about a month ago.

edew · 07-13-2002, 08:02 PM

<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Mo:
We still use it for Youth-12 and Youth-10 events. I believe the 1992 Olympics was run with the best two-out-of-three for the direct elimination. It was sort of the interim between 10-touch bouts and the current 15-touch bouts.

Two out of three point bouts can go by even FASTER than a fifteen point bout. Someone can win 10-0 instead of 15-0.
They use them in the younger age brackets because they are over quicker and not as long and stressful. Rarely do they get to one each.
There is a great disparity of levels in the 10 and Under and 12 and Under age groups. Some kids can get creamed 5-1 5-0. I imagine with countries that have kind of cruddy fencers but made it due to the size, (say maybe Scottland vs US)
The best idea would be to have a couple rounds of pools instead of just the direct elimination for seating and battle it out there. Then when people got to the finals they would be exciting due to the quality of the fencers in them.
Right now as I understand it the entire meet in the O's is direct elimination. Each country can send three fencers in a weapon so say if Russia has 6 World ranked fencers they can only send three of them. So the competition is not that fierce or too fierce.
The big kid in the house says there is nothing like a bout that gets to 14-14, the suspense can be a killer. (especially to a mother) I've seen fencers come back from impossible odds and win. One time the big kid was in a bout losing 14-7. He came back to 14-14 and then lost the last point on an "un lamp." Damn....<hr /></blockquote>At the senior level, winning 15-0 doesn't take that much more time than winning 10-0. However, in the youth events, where there are lots more off-targets (in foil), 2-out-of-3 five touch bouts will generally go by faster than a 15-touch bout.

sabreur · 07-16-2002, 12:11 AM

I have to say that I much prefer 15 touch bouts to 5 touch bouts. One mistake, and you're struggling in a 5 touch bout. In a 15 touch bout there is time to adjust--I often am down 3-5 touches in a DE and come back to win.

MR

Mo · 07-16-2002, 12:00 PM

At the senior level, winning 15-0 doesn't take that much more time than winning 10-0. However, in the youth events, where there are lots more off-targets (in foil), 2-out-of-3 five touch bouts will generally go by faster than a 15-touch bout.
Edew,
I agree with this completely. The point I was trying to make is that the best of three five point bouts will not do anything to make fencing more exciting on TV. It could make it LESS interesting!!
I do like repechage (sp?) though, that seems to add flavor to the fencing!!

Zelda · 07-19-2002, 02:53 PM

repacharge confuses the hell out of me!! All I know is I have to loss twice to be out!!!

Mo · 07-19-2002, 07:30 PM

repacharge confuses the hell out of me!! All I know is I have to loss twice to be out!!!
Zel,
What are you talking about?? You understand it. You have two chances to lose before you are out of the competition! Of course everyone else does too but that way if there is only one person who can beat you and you have to fence them early on, you are not completely out of the game.
A second chance is always good!

Zelda · 07-20-2002, 02:14 AM

Mo Yes I know but ever tried reading a repacharge tableau when you are tired, dehyrdated and stressed??? It just gets confusing....

Saber-Psycho · 07-22-2002, 01:53 PM

If you wanted to make fencing a more watched sport, making the DEs 2 out of 3 would make it less popular. All you're doing is making them shorter, in Saber that would be like 40 seconds bouts! (just the actions)
In Epee that would make it 8 minute bouts.
they do it in y-10/y-12 because they think that the little kids can't fence for that long, and they do tens in veterans because they're too old,

Why would they do it for the rest of us?

Peach · 07-22-2002, 06:33 PM

They do 10s in U.S. Veterans because the Veteran World Championships are 10s and they figure it should be consistent. None of the veterans like 10s.