Foilists beware!

[Mergs]

Had a discussion last night with one of the coaches (US) that was in Poland for the Junior/Cadet Worlds and found out why Iris, et al didn't do as well as expected.

Seems that the directors were not giving the attack to the bent arm/flick,(aka the chase the opponent down the strip with your bell guard somewhere aound you ear attack) combination, instead calling what was in the past the counter-attack, the attack into preparation.

They also seem to have been calling corps-a-corps to the strictest sense also.

Expect much discussion, wailing and gnashing of teeth as this makes it's way into the NAC's!

(tee hee)

[big poppa]

I certainly hope so:

[Craig]

I'm sure they did that to coincide with the new strike zone.

;-)

We were talking about this in club last night. Just like any other interpretation change, it will tick a lot of people off, but the better fencers will recognize what is being called and adjust. Those that aren't that good won't adjust and will pine for the "good old days".

Craig

[The Bayer Hunter]

OK, come on people. Let's not blow our loads just cause Iris Zimmerwoman gets a director that calls it the old fashioned way. Who is to say this will be a sign of things to come?

[Mergs]

It wasn't just Iris that they were calling it against. It was ALL of the US fencers.

[vegan]

Mergs and Craig,
More insight into this please - - -
It would be useful!!
When does the attack start and end?
How about counter attack?
Some situational examples might be useful.
Also I would like some more experienced fencers and coaches to guess how long it will take until this filters into the NACS and nationals? Neevel, Craig, EDew?? guys, any idea.
Finally if you fine folks who are attending Reno see this there, or get a chance to ask Mr. Moss, or some other FOC bigwig; please post the info here.
Thanks a bunch
B.
Ps. Mergs, thanks!!
PPs. anyone think this is a permanent change or a fluke?

[Stryder]

Vegan,
Heard it before. I wouldn't get too excited.

------------------
www.geocities.com/strydermike

[Porphyre]

Mergs: To be devil's advocate, were they only calling it that way against our fencers or were they calling it that way against everybody?

-Porphyre

[veeco]

This would be strange however that there would be a global coalition against the US, esp. since sabre, the most controversial weapon in terms of directing showed such good results for you guys.

I'd say Iris was just in a bad day or this director was seeing the action differently than everyone, and Iris did not adjust.

She got knocked off by Varga, I heard, and Varga is no beginner. Can't really blame it all on the referee here... :-).

[vegan]

stryder and veeco,
Yes, I agree on both points, however I am interested in how foil is called internationally.
looking forward to more discourse on this,
Cheers,
B.

[Craig]

From what our coach said, that was how Goloubitsky was calling foil.

Not really a change in how things are called, but a tightening of the tempo in which they are called.

From my perspective, you'll see calls in foil start to be called at a faster tempo like in sabre. I figure it would take a while to filter down, though. That's why I used the strike zone analogy - the rules 'say' one thing, but each ref/ump. has their own personal "strike zone" for what is what.

This is why there is a real need for more training clinics set up by international-level refs to train local and regional refs.

Craig

[Mergs]

Hmm. So many questions and comments.

First, let's start with the "global conspiricy" bit. When I first started fencing (back in the dark ages of dry saber) The US couldn't buy a top 16 finish in saber internationally. Along comes electric saber and 6 years later we have 4 golds in the Junior & cadet world's. That in itself may not seem significant, but the fact that the first year of electric saber the US fencers start getting into the top 16 regularly may seem to be circumstantial, but it is significant.

As for the directors picking on the US, no I don't think so. I think it's because these kids have grown up flicking and so used to the bent arm attack, they couldn't adjust in time. I had a similar situation in a recent DE against a B-rated fencer where the director started calling the action the same way (attack in prep vice counter attack) and it frustrated the HELL out of them. She never really adjusted well. Still managed to beat me, but it was 15-13.

I can't say if it was only against the US fencers or not, but as I stated before, they are the ones that probably suffered the most because of it by virtue of their style.

As to the questions vegan posed:

It is my contention that this is not a different interpretation of the rules, but the correct and in keeping with the intent of the rule interpretation. The attack begins with the arm extending toward valid target. If the opponent begins his attack before this (not just with the forward movement of the body and the wind up for the flick) it is an attack in preparation. If it comes after the initiation of the flick it is a counter attack. Pretty simple, actually.

Example: Fencer A establishes a point in line while moving forward as Fencer B steps back and attempts to take the blade, but leaves his point in line; A goes for the big fick to the opponents shoulder (withdrawing the arm in the process, but still moving forward) and B's point finds valid target. In the past it would be called A's attack all the way and B's counter attack. Now it is B's attack in preparation. Touche` for B.

As for how long it will take to get to the US shores? The same coach that told me about this was talking to his other national level fencers about it and how to change their game to prepare for it. I'd say look for it by the time of Nationals or the first NAC for the 01-02 fencing season. IMHO.

Vegan, did you get my message about places to fence in DC?

Mergs, humble bearer of glad tiddings.

[neevel]

Vegan--

Not substantially differently that the best national level refs call it-- remember, the top U.S. refs _do_ referee internationally, so they do keep up with what's coming down from the FIE.

There's a constant flux of what sorts of things are emphasized (or wanted to be emphasized by the powers that be). It's true that right now Rene Roch and some of the other FIE higher-ups are talking a lot about moving foil fencing towards being a bit more 'classical'. Will anything lasting come of it? Who knows. Will it have any real effect on the national or international points list? No-- anyone who thinks a fencer like Iris will be significantly impacted in the long term by an adjustment in the usual interpretation of r-o-w doesn't understand the sort of capabilities that anybody competing at that level has developed.

BTW, what's being described sounds very similar to the first half of Iris' gold-medal bout against Katalin Varga last year-- she was a bit off on the distance and timing, and Varga was being quite effective at setting up the attack-in-prep on it. Iris started to be a bit more diligent at setting things up from her end, and came back to win it 15-14. So it may well not be a new thing at all, but just G. Varga taking note of what K. Varga had been having some success against Iris with last year and putting it to use effectively.

-Dave

[This message has been edited by neevel (edited 04-19-2001).]

[Christopher J Umbs]

Wow. I think I'm in shock. Yup that is the old/classical way. Actually it's not even that old, they were calling it that way when I was sport fencing in 87. I guess they've reconsidered what the exact definition of 'threatening' is.

Chris

[Arturo]

I don't think that you can call it the "old" way. It's the right way. Remember that the point has to be moving and threatening target.

Even if we all disagree what right of way is, and where the prep ends and the counter-attack begins we have to keep in mind that it is what the director thinks. So if he is not giving you the touch, stop it and adjust.

in foil you fence three people...

Art

[d8m2k]

There is no "right way".

It's interpretation.
Current interpretation is what matters most.

[arcon]

[ 10-19-2001: Message edited by: arcon ]

[Christopher J Umbs]

Um... Hi Auturo,

I'm guessing that you don't know who I am. I'm a student and instuctor at the Martinez Academy. You don't need to tell me that's the right interpretation. But I do agree with d8m2k... it's just the current fashion. If it doesn't draw more of a crowd, I'm sure it will be switched to something else.

Chris

[MikeHarm]

Mergs:

What do you mean exactly by corps-a-corps being called in the strictest sense?

Mike

[Mergs]

That is contacting your opponent with your guard, not just guard to guard contact.