My generation's loss

[fencerontheline]

One of the biggest problems I've seen in US fencing is people get good, and then disappear. The next generation loses a tremendous resource when that happens.

After this last Olympic year, in men's foil alone, we've lost these fencers from the national circuit (all sr point holders):: both of the Chang brothers, Eli Miloslavsky, Alex Wood, Mark Mulholland, Mike Passinkoff and Sean McClain.

Enoch Woodhouse, Allejandro Bras, Mike Galligan, and Steve Gerberman haven't competed outside of NCAAs.

Derek Snyder and Ben Lombardo seem to be out for good.

These are just fencers from the senior men's foil point list. There are probably many more to consider.

What are your guy's thoughts?

What's the problem and how can it be solved?

[Mr Epee]

This conversation got started in the back room, so I just want to add one more thing.

Obviously, we are talking about people who love fencing and have demonstrated a fairly high level of proficiency within the sport. These people are almost always intellegent, and usually fairly well educated - at least in the US. Fencing has been a big and important part of their lives, but even if there was a way to earn a living fencing, these people have much better opportunities outside of the sport.

One of the major benefits of fencing is that it can be a lifetime sport. I was talking to a guy the other day who had played football in college. Like most college football players, he didn't have the talent/size to make the NFL, and at the age of 22 he had played his last game of football - ever!... There is no opportunity for him to play football.

The situation is a different for a fencer.

Fencers can grab their stuff and go to the club for a few bouts whenever they feel the need. It's just as easy as going to play racquetball/tennis/bowling/etc.

However, for many retired competitors there is a profound sense of relief about not having to dedicate 20-30 hours a week + weekends away + travel/training expenses. There is a huge problem making the transition between elite competitor and being a solid recreational participant. The personal expectations are drastically different, and can be hard to adjust to.

But, if they could stick around a little bit longer the impact on the next generation could be huge.

[glowstix]

problem is that life goes on. you tell people you fence, they don't care. you have to make a living. when you get out of college you pretty much have to take the first job offer you get with how competitive it is these days. with this being the case, you probably have a better chance of ending up some place that doesn't have fencing than some place that has good fencing so you have to quit. though obviously i'm not in the class of fencers you mentioned, this is what is going to happen to me most likely and probably a lot of other people too.

i don't know about the guys you mentioned but perhaps they're burnt out from all the training. they're on the points list so they must have worked really really hard for years and maybe they just don't want that to be what defines them anymore; maybe they want change. nothing lasts forever, dude.

[CheekyCanuck]

However, for many retired competitors there is a profound sense of relief about not having to dedicate 20-30 hours a week + weekends away + travel/training expenses. There is a huge problem making the transition between elite competitor and being a solid recreational participant. The personal expectations are drastically different, and can be hard to adjust to.

But, if they could stick around a little bit longer the impact on the next generation could be huge.

To be so dedicated to the sport (20-30 hours) you would think they would be fencing somewhere, but maybe not on such a high level. I would think that their experience is given to whatever club they end up joining/joined.

[Mr Epee]

To be so dedicated to the sport (20-30 hours) you would think they would be fencing somewhere, but maybe not on such a high level. I would think that their experience is given to whatever club they end up joining/joined.

Sadly, it is fairly common to see people disappear from the sport.

Especially after such extreme levels of commitment.

[Feltan]

Sadly, it is fairly common to see people disappear from the sport.

Especially after such extreme levels of commitment.

While sad, I don't think it is unexpected either.

Look at the top fencers, they aren't lukewarm about the sport -- it is their life. They are either fencing 100%, or they are not fencing at all; the thought of a recreational level of competition does not compute for them.

Regards,
Feltan

[Army Fencer]

I know that after 2008, I'm going to be done fencing competitively. I'll fence here and there, but I'll need to devote all the time and love I put into the sport into treating patients and developing my career in the military.

Life has to go on, and that's a particular about American fencing.

[SmokeyTheCat263]

Enoch Woodhouse, Allejandro Bras, Mike Galligan, and Steve Gerberman haven't competed outside of NCAAs.

Derek Snyder and Ben Lombardo seem to be out for good.

Woodhouse = Harvard
Bras = Princeton
Galligan = Upenn
Gerberman = Stanford
Lombardo = Columbia

All Ivy League Schoolers. Coincidence? Hardly.

(Except for Derek...last year at NCAAs he broke his wrist and had to undergo extensive rehab. From what I hear, he just started fencing again)

The timing changes also didn't help these guys much. They are all in fencing programs that, while strong, do not necesarily foster improvement in elite fencers' abilities...just maintaining. Attempting to just maintain with such a drastic timing change can be a b1tch and a half.

-ahk

[dogbuffet]

when it comes down to it.. it's all about money...

i bet if there is an easy way to make millions of dollars like in the other sports, you will see more people sticking around...

otherwise you got to feed the kids right...

[LUDICROUS]

I know that after 2008, I'm going to be done fencing competitively. I'll fence here and there, but I'll need to devote all the time and love I put into the sport into treating patients and developing my career in the military.

Life has to go on, and that's a particular about American fencing.

I don't have anything worth saying, but I get where you're coming from, and I agree in a way. I know, agree isn't the word, but it's hard to describe.

Hope you make Beijing!

Amusement: Chinese fencing gear won't be used at Beijing, unless it's socks/gloves/shoes


Edit: 666th post.

*Iron Maiden, Number Of the Beast starts playing in the background

[RebelFencer]

I believe what happened to them I similarly experienced after retiring from wrestling. When you are so passionate about something that you dedicate 100% of your time, energy, thought, and emotion into something like a sport you obviously become very good. But for people like this, compromising for a job or something just isn't possible. Giving 30% of everything to your sport just kills because the inner competitor is saying, "What are you doing? Step it up!" I believe that retiring is necessary for those athletes because as Mr Epee said, turning recreational just doesn't compute.

[darius]

Giving 30% of everything to your sport just kills because the inner competitor is saying, "What are you doing? Step it up!"

That's right. Hopefully some of them will at least pass on their knowledge to others by coaching -- Sean McClain and Joe Fisher are doing a good job of that in Westchester, for example.

darius

[Rodeo79]

Its hard to keep fencing after being an elite fencer...

Then you go fence and compete, things don't come as easily as they once did... Then it hits you... You loved fencing, so you got good at it, and that love changed... You loved fencing and winning... It's like a drug... A huge high... You can't just win you have to win big, you have to beat others like you to get the real high...

Then you stop for whatever reason... You find you can't dedicate yourself as you once did...Then you go fence and compete, things don't come as easily as they once did.. You can't capture that high like you once could... People sorta forget who you are, or were, whatever... You're not that person whose presence alone could intimadate an oppenent... You go to a NAC and get top 32... You're not happy cause that unnacceptable in your mind...

Watching what you had slip away... It's hard to accept... Impossible to ignore... so you escape it...

[mlr2fence]

escape it.....to become a coach....or the parent of another youth fencer.....and the cycle begins again!!

[rdinap]

The important thing is not so much on who is getting out, but the quality of the people coming in. Fencer's get old and the fire dims, particularly this year after the Olympics and the changes in the foil timings.

With those college fencers mentioned, I am sure the NCAA was simply a new challenge and the USFA rankings simply didn't hold the same allure that it did when they were coming up. Nothing wrong with that.

[D+F+P=Hadouken!]

Its hard to keep fencing after being an elite fencer...

Then you go fence and compete, things don't come as easily as they once did... Then it hits you... You loved fencing, so you got good at it, and that love changed... You loved fencing and winning... It's like a drug... A huge high... You can't just win you have to win big, you have to beat others like you to get the real high...

Then you stop for whatever reason... You find you can't dedicate yourself as you once did...Then you go fence and compete, things don't come as easily as they once did.. You can't capture that high like you once could... People sorta forget who you are, or were, whatever... You're not that person whose presence alone could intimadate an oppenent... You go to a NAC and get top 32... You're not happy cause that unnacceptable in your mind...

Watching what you had slip away... It's hard to accept... Impossible to ignore... so you escape it...

Holy sheet.... that is so amazingly deep. Wow.

[Mr Epee]

Holy sheet....

Holy sheet - yet another wonderful Southern invention.

Next up! Cross burning
----------------------

Seriously though, Rodeo79's perfectly describes the transition.

It's amazing how similar people's experiences can be in this area.

One of the key points is the part about being forgotten as an athlete. I get the impression that this plays a larger roll than most people think, and it's something that our sport easily improve on with today's technology.

Each successive generation of fencers only seems to have knowledge of the most recent crop of competitors. And really the only way to learn about retired competitors is to go out for a beer with their old friends who are still around...

[veeco]

After this last Olympic year, in men's foil alone, we've lost these fencers from the national circuit (all sr point holders):: both of the Chang brothers, Eli Miloslavsky, Alex Wood, Mark Mulholland, Mike Passinkoff and Sean McClain.

Enoch Woodhouse, Allejandro Bras, Mike Galligan, and Steve Gerberman haven't competed outside of NCAAs.

Derek Snyder and Ben Lombardo seem to be out for good.

These are just fencers from the senior men's foil point list. There are probably many more to consider.

What are your guy's thoughts?

What's the problem and how can it be solved?

You paint quite a brim picture, and I can't say I don't disagree. But I know some of the fencers you mention and some of them are still very active in the sport. Sean McClain for example coaches in New York, and I am sure that we will be hearing from some of his students in the future. His dedication to fencing and his pedagogic skills are very good IMO.

Alex Wood still comes to the club every once and a while and spends time with the younger fencers, and I am sure that he will pass on a lot of knowledge to the younger generation as well.

I am not sure about some of the others, but just because they aren't competing doesn't mean that they are not involved in the sport anymore.