Rule clarification

[Stryder]

I need some help.
I noticed that most people think that a fencer can demand hand judges at any time during the bout.
However the rulebook says only that the referee can ask for hand judges and makes no mention of the fencers' right to do so.
(t.23)

Have I missed a rule? Can anyone find a rule that says the referee has to respect this request from the fencers?
www.geocities.com/fencinglessons/5.html

[This message has been edited by Stryder (edited 06-19-2001).]

[edew]

I think a fencer may request hand judges and then it's the decision of the referee whether to bring them on. The referee need not ask for hand judges after a request by a fencer to do so. In other words, the referee need not respect the requests of the fencer(s).

[Purple Fencer]

I've never had a director deny a request for a hand judge. What pisses me off, though, is when the guys who gets tasked to watch for covering doesn't do the job. It's really a bit difficult to watch for covering of target when you're at one end of the strip and the fencers are way at the other end. Kinda hard to see though a body. That's what happened to me in Vegas this last year. One guy Jr. D'Asaro asked to watch my opponent didn't physically follow the action, and I truly believe it cost me the DE bout (15-14, and I would've had to fence Edew next!) I always make sure I can see the action if I'm asked to be a hand judge.

I'm not overly bitter about that bout. Eric would've wiped the floor with me in short order, and my opponent fought VERY hard. I'd just like people to do they job when they're asked, regardless of if they're judging for an "A" or a "U".

------------------
Sam Signorelli -- Boldly going forward...'cause I can't find reverse!

[edew]

Sam, was that in foil or sabre? Just wondering which one I was going to wipe the floor with you in.

[mango fever]

i've heard the request before, usually to watch left handed fencers?

[edew]

Doubtful. Since there are usually fewer lefties than righties, most cases will have lefties fence on the left hand side of the strip, so the back arm is clearly visible to the referee. It's more common to see righty-righty, and the righty on the left hand side of the strip may do the covering.

In the case of lefty-lefty, certainly the lefty on the right hand side of the strip may cover target, but lefty-lefty fencing doesn't occur until later in the DEs when they're the only ones left. :-)

[Purple Fencer]

Originally posted by edew:
Sam, was that in foil or sabre? Just wondering which one I was going to wipe the floor with you in.

It was the foil. We've never met in sabre...although I seriously doubt the result would be any different

In the sabre I managed to beat a lady from San Diego 15-14 (forgot her name, but I think she's Jim Royal's girlfriend/wife), then had the defending champ...got 7 off him! And I've been doing better against Josh Runyan, so there may be hope for me in Sac.

Ya gotta have a dream!

------------------
Sam Signorelli -- Boldly going forward...'cause I can't find reverse!

[Stryder]

The rule also states that the ref can have the fencers switch sides so that he can see the other fencer better.

I wish I had known that I could refuse the fencers request. I have had people ask for hand judges at the beginning of a pool bout!


------------------
www.geocities.com/strydermike

[oiuyt]

Why would you bother refusing the request? The hand judges don't HURT anything, and as director you're still responsible for making the final call no matter WHAT the hand judges says.

-B

------------------
"Oh but you can't expect to wield supreme executive power just because some watery tart threw a sword at you!"

[Stryder]

Oiuyt-
Because the Ref' has to walk back to the bout commitee table and then the BC has to round up two officials who are not busy and bring them back to the pool bout to watch the whiner get hit one more time.

I have never refused or even implied that this was a waste of time to the fencer because I thought it was a right they had.
Now that I know it is not, I will refuse unless I feel there is some possibility of covering target affecting the bout.

Has anyone ever called you OU812 ?


------------------
www.geocities.com/strydermike

[oiuyt]

Not that I can recall, no....

-B

------------------
"Oh but you can't expect to wield supreme executive power just because some watery tart threw a sword at you!"

[arcon]

[ 10-23-2001: Message edited by: arcon ]

[Stryder]

Arcon-
As far as I know that is incorrect. A fencer may, at any time request that the BCsent a representative to observe the bout and the referee.
But according to George Kolumbatovich, the rules make no provision to replace a referee unless he is sick.
I will see if I can find anything specific.

Found something specific;

T.37
At the end of each round, the delegates of the Refereeing Committee
may withdraw a referee whose performance was not satisfactory.
However, a referee will not be changed in the course of a bout except in
exceptional circumstances (e.g. physical disability of the referee).
------------------
www.geocities.com/strydermike

[This message has been edited by Stryder (edited 06-21-2001).]

[oiuyt]

But as a fencer one can DEFINATELY request of the people at the concession stand that your referee get replaced. It won't do any GOOD, but you can make the request....

-B

------------------
"Oh but you can't expect to wield supreme executive power just because some watery tart threw a sword at you!"

[RedsectorA]

Is there any rule that covers the situation of "a director who has a fencer on his strip that he/she is in some way associated with" as in married, attached, or otherwise related?

------------------
Joel

"The more we think we know about, the greater the unknown!"

[This message has been edited by RedsectorA (edited 06-21-2001).]

[Stryder]

RedSectorA-
Yes.

t.91 The members of the jury must fulfil their duties not only with total
impartiality but also with the utmost attention (cf. t.34).

t.34 By accepting a position as referee or judge, the person so designated
pledges his honor to respect the rules and to cause them to be respected,
and to carry out his duties with the strictest impartiality and absolute
concentration.

t.37 For the rounds of pools and the preliminary direct elimination table, the
delegates of the Refereeing Committee select referees by lot.
For the main direct elimination table, the delegates of the Refereeing
Committee establish a list of a sufficient number of the best referees
present, taking account of their nationalities. These referees are assigned
to each quarter of the table to referee the bouts in the order of the table.
If it is not possible to proceed in this way, the refereeing delegates may
switch over the referees between the different quarters of the table.
At the end of each round, the delegates of the Refereeing Committee
may withdraw a referee whose performance was not satisfactory.
However, a referee will not be changed in the course of a bout except in
exceptional circumstances (e.g. physical disability of the referee). In
such a case the decision will be made by the delegates of the Refereeing
Committee (this rule is equally valid for team competitions).
For the final, the delegates of the Refereeing Committee provide a list of
from 4–8 referees, of whom:
— 2–4 must be entirely neutral;
— 2–4 may be chosen without taking account of their nationality.
For the first four bouts, referees are selected by lot from among the
entirely neutral ones.
After the first four bouts, lots are again drawn, taking account of the
nationalities of the fencers still qualified.
The drawing of lots is done, where possible, with the help of a
computer.

------------------
www.geocities.com/strydermike

[This message has been edited by Stryder (edited 06-21-2001).]

[RedsectorA]

Ok, I see that it says that a director (referee) must be carry out their duties with "total impartiality", ... but what I was wondering is ..if a man was directing a bout between his wife and another woman ... would this be allowed according to the rules?



------------------
Joel

"The more we think we know about, the greater the unknown!"

[Peach]

I dunno what the rule is, or if there is a rule. Someone else will (as always) be able to find that far more quickly than I, and cite it more accurately.

I do know that when I was assigned to referee at Summer Nationals they always made sure I wasn't refereeing teammates or even former teammates. You have to put down your club affiliations when you check in.

And I have, as a fencer, been told by a member of a USFA bout committee that I could go to the bout committee before I appeared on strip and request another director if I saw that the one assigned is one who has a problem with me. No guarantees that I would be *assigned* another one, mind you.

I have, in fact, once politely requested that I have another referee--in a regional tournament when my opponent in the DE was a member of the club where the tournament was being held, and the referee was her coach. My reason was that he would be harder on her than on me <grin> and he agreed.

[Stryder]

RedSectorA- All I could say to that man would be: "Yes, you can sleep at my house tonight."

I think that there is an addendum somewhere regarding the Referee's code of ethics.

A referee will not be assigned by the BC to referee a fencer who lists the same club affiliation, and is honor bound to refuse any assignment where he might have or be construed to have a conflict of interests. (former clubmates, former lovers, sworn/arch enemies, etc.)

I couldn't find any such thing in the 1999 rulebook, but I know I've seen it.

------------------
www.geocities.com/strydermike

[This message has been edited by Stryder (edited 06-21-2001).]