Should A fencers fence local tournaments?

[Navy Seal]

Do you think A level fencers should fence in local tournaments? This is a serious question, because obviously, some people do not think so. Most of them, A level fencers.

At an open tournament this weekend with about 40 fencers, several B's, C's, D's, etc., and two A's needed to make it an A2 tournament (and only 2 A fencers in the area). Two A fencers show up but one refuses to fence because "he has nothing to gain" by making it an A tournament. The end result, a good B2 tournament even though no new rankings were earned.

What I can't stand is the attitude of some A fencers. You can only earn an A ranking with other A fencers present, but once they earn their A, they don't seem to want other fencers to have the same opportunity.

My solution, only allow A rankings to be earned at national events. Most of the ones with attitude received their A, but didn't earn it, at local competitions anyway. I think that is why they are afraid to make it an A tournament, they know they should win, but can't.

[telkanuru]

If As stopped showing up, Bs wouldn't either, because they couldn't get their A or should/could beat everyone there, and so on down the slippery slope. I wish more As would show up to Opens...

[prototoast]

I think that attitude is just a little too hostile towards A's. First, classifications are not everything, and if you really deserve one, you can always earn it at national events (since Div1/Div1a are automatically A events). If a fencer doesn't want to fence a particular event, he or she should not be obligated to for the purposes of giving out classifications.

I've never personally witnessed any "A who just barely earned it at a local event and won't fence because they won't live up to their A" and I just don't see it as much of a problem.

Many high level fencers don't fence local events because often these fencers are busy enough, or they won't gain much from entering the event (if you know you'd win easily, the event just isn't as much fun as it is going through the motions).

If it really bothers you, I suggest you get really good, earn an A and then fence as many local competitions as you can.

[veeco]

At an open tournament this weekend with about 40 fencers, several B's, C's, D's, etc., and two A's needed to make it an A2 tournament (and only 2 A fencers in the area). Two A fencers show up but one refuses to fence because "he has nothing to gain" by making it an A tournament. The end result, a good B2 tournament even though no new rankings were earned.

That's interesting, but I would say that the A fencer in question lost something in the process: he lost some valuable time, and money driving to the event in question and not fencing.
He also probably lost some respect from the other fencers, but that's another matter.

My solution, only allow A rankings to be earned at national events. Most of the ones with attitude received their A, but didn't earn it, at local competitions anyway. I think that is why they are afraid to make it an A tournament, they know they should win, but can't.

I am not sure that's a better solution. A rankings are really not the be all and end all, anyway, IMO, national points are. When you are an A fencer, that's the next big step. If you remove the ability to earn As in local tournaments, you miss a crucial step in development between Bs and national points, and you might not be able to retain some of those up and coming B fencers for long enough to get there. Not to mention the fact that it would probably mean that there are a lot more Bs to seed in tournaments and it would make for a harder job for tournament organizers to make properly balanced pools.

[Peach]

In my weapon (WS) it's all but impossible to earn an A anywhere BUT national competition, and it's not very easy in men's sabre, either. It's not like men's epee, where there has been considerable cross-pollination, as it were. Making an A possible only at the national level would not offer any more incentive to fence local competitions.

At any rate, none of the numerous local and regional tournaments I have attended over the last four years with my one-time A has awarded a new A because of me. Generally, the other A wins it , while I've re-earned a B a number of times.

[whtouche]

At any rate, none of the numerous local and regional tournaments I have attended over the last four years with my one-time A has awarded a new A because of me. Generally, the other A wins it , while I've re-earned a B a number of times.

Maybe I misunderstand what you mean here, but didn't Brad re-earn his A earlier in the year at a tournament where you and he were the only A's?

[rmyounis]

It's entirely up to them. One of the clubs I fence out of has several A and B rated fencers, and our monthly local tournaments are often B events, but they almost always get won by someone who is already an A or a B - in this case, A-fencer participation isn't the issue, A-fencer skill is. I feel like getting all the As to show up will end up pissing off as many people as it makes happy, judging by the number of posts by people already annoyed at how hard it is to break into competitions, even on the local level.

I personally show up religiously to every local event, but mostly because fencing on Saturdays is really fun

[KShan5[PrFC]]

You can earn an A without there being any As present. You had to have, think about it in the beginning of the system, if there were no A's right at the beginning then there never would be any. If the competion is an A3 event, there need be no A's but you can still earn an A.

http://www.usfencing.org/Documents/R...sMan/Class.asp

[Peach]

Maybe I misunderstand what you mean here, but didn't Brad re-earn his A earlier in the year at a tournament where you and he were the only A's?

Yeah, but he already had his A, even if it was an earlier vintage. The original poster was talking about earning new A's.

[Peach]

You can earn an A without there being any As present. You had to have, think about it in the beginning of the system, if there were no A's right at the beginning then there never would be any. If the competion is an A3 event, there need be no A's but you can still earn an A.

http://www.usfencing.org/Documents/R...sMan/Class.asp

That category of tournament is so new and wonderful. I wish it had been around 10 years ago. Before there was any Division I competition in WS, it was de facto impossible for women sabre fencers to earn an A.

[Kitana]

Well, it would give fencers with lesser experience a chance to mix in with more experienced fencers, thus gaining more experience for themselves [yeah, try and follow that. I've been up for 24+ hours].

[mrbiggs]

At an open tournament this weekend with about 40 fencers, several B's, C's, D's, etc., and two A's needed to make it an A2 tournament (and only 2 A fencers in the area). Two A fencers show up but one refuses to fence because "he has nothing to gain" by making it an A tournament. The end result, a good B2 tournament even though no new rankings were earned.

What a jerk! That's pretty selfish, I'd have to say. Not necessarily beause of the ranking, but also because people go to tournaments to gain experience, and when they go to Opens, they hope to fence good fencers. If everyone did this, there wouldn't be any fencing.

[mlr2fence]

As always, two ways of looking at this. Most serious competitive A fencers are traveling to larger regional, NAC and/or international tournaments. They need to in order to continue developing and maintaining their skills against other high level fencers. There is limited time/money so they may feel that local tournaments are expendable. Everyone needs the 'off' weekend. Plus, what negative effect does frequently fencing 'wild' beginners have on their own fencing? Just watch warm-up bouting. After warming up with their friends fencers look for an opportunity to warm up against that higher rated, better fencer.
The other side is: What does one 'owe' to the sport? Do the elite fencers owe it to their club/division to compete in at least some of the yearly tournaments?

[fencinman89]

Well, it would give fencers with lesser experience a chance to mix in with more experienced fencers, thus gaining more experience for themselves [yeah, try and follow that. I've been up for 24+ hours].

I understand what you mean.
-Tre'

[Philistine]

{snip}
Two A fencers show up but one refuses to fence because "he has nothing to gain" by making it an A tournament. {snip}

Why did he come in the first place?

--Philistine

[mifencer]

Interesting thread. I find that situation in reverse.

Being an 'A', I try to support the local tournaments. The other A's in the area try to support the local tournaments as well. At Sectionals I was asked what I was doing there. What I find is that the lower rated fencers don't show. It puzzles me to no end that a 'C & Under', 'D & Under', or a novice tournament can draw more people than an Open. What gives? Are the trophies / medals that important or the chance to get better? {Personally, even though I really appreciate the trophies / medals, I can do without them. I'd rather see more people at more opens, that would be a great reward.}

My overall opinion is that people are selfish regardless what level of ranking they have.

[hello?]

My own thoughts: if the A fencer can't be at the local tournament because he or she is either somewhere-national, fencing a higher level, or too tired from being somewhere-national, then of course he or she shouldn't be fencing the local open. If, on the other hand, he or she does not want to fence because he or she deems the local open is beneath them (which I think is what the original post implied) then that person has obviously forgotten how he or she got started. I think it's great to have the opportunity to fence people who are better, etc. for the lower levels...For the A fencer: I think the "wild beginners" someone mentioned before avoid opens, for the most part, because they feel they are not ready. The only time I have heard that it is "uncool" for A fencers to fence is at Div 1-A Nationals because there is some unspoken rule that this prevents others from earning their A....I can't say I even agree with that one though: it's a lot of money to go somewhere if you can only fence the Div I.

[oiuyt]

As someone who frequently fences in local tournaments of a large variety of levels (obviously only opens in sabre, but in a wide enough variety of locations that some are rediculously weaker than others), clearly I believe that it's at least reasonable for A's to fence locally. I can also certainly understand why A's would choose not to. In addition to the reasons cited here so far, there's also the issue that many tournaments provide extremely little positive benefit and a considerable potential, if not guaranteed, negative benefit (malefit? :) ).

This is something which can, and does, vary regionally, and within regions based on expected attendance (generally who, rather more than how many). But there are simply tournaments where winning is expected, with nothing gained (other than the bright-shiny mentioned by mifencer), including minimal additional development for the A. Anything less than that -- and frequently even that, by a small enough margin -- results in a negative outcome in terms of what the A fencer deals with both from him/herself (depending on personality and psychological profile of the fencer, naturally) and from others. KShan/whtouche- as an example, I remember when your coach was still actively competitive, but nearing the end of that phase of her career. I certainly heard her express that sentiment about both local and, to a lesser extent, national competition. Having been near the top there was little upside and much downside to competing. She still did, on occasion -- which is how I've fenced her a couple of times -- but I know that she questioned whether or not she should even on those rare occurances.

Telk- I don't believe that B's would stop showing up. Certainly earning an A is not the only reason to attend an event or they would nearly never show up as it is. Since we know that B's attend even when there's no chance of having ANY A's present, much less two, we can dismiss that worry.

whtouche- Peach has already clarified, but I wasn't a new A. I believe the only local sabre tournament that I've even been at where a new A was created was a couple of years ago when Evan earned his, beating out Daria and myself. I originally earned mine nationally, have re-earned it twice locally, and have been in (I believe) four other local A tournaments (two won by Evan, one won by Ben Igoe, one won by Matt Zich). So in five of the six local A-level tournaments that I can remember participating in, an A won. And Evan was solidly A-level and had solidly lodged himself on the points list when he earned his.

I absolutely agree with mifencer -- it's absolutely rediculous when an 'E' and under can double the field size of an open on neighboring weekends. Or, worse, when you see results from various divisions where the events are held back-to-back on the same day and it happens. Gaaa, just get out and fence already.

There are lots of reasons to fence. There are also lots of reasons not to fence. And these reasons vary depending on a number of things, but one of those things is the level of the fencer, especially the level of the fencer relative to the specific competition. If the fencer's only reason not to fence was deny the possibility of the creation of a new A... Uhm, yeah. When the fencer arrived at the venue did s/he intend to compete? If the other A were not there and/or not fencing would s/he then have entered the competition? If the answer to either of those is no then I absolutely don't think the A should be shown any scorn or derision due to not choosing to enter just to improve the tournament. If the answer to both of those questions is yes then I see less justification in the A's decision. But, you know what, it's still his/her choice. If you don't agree with the choice, follow prototoast's advice.

I also experienced what mifencer mentioned. At sectionals I was asked why I was there. My immediate response was to ask my questioner the same. I plan to fence IA. Am I doing it to get my A? No, I already have a current A. Am I doing it to deny the A to someone else? No, that would be stupid. I'm doing it because I enjoy competing and it'll be a good event. I have seen shouting matches mid-bout at IA nationals where one fencer (who was in the process of losing an L16 bout) was annoyed at her teammate (in the process of winning said L16 bout) for even being in the event given that she already had her A. Earning an A is not the only purpose of IA events. The idea that A's "shouldn't" fence in them is stupid. Amazingly the referee allowed this to continue between touches (including both fencers telling each other that they hated each other, at least one calling the other a b****, etc.).

-B :)

[Goldgar]

Are there no classification-restricted events being held in this area? An open is an open; a chance for fencers of all classifications to come out and see what they can do.

I don't really understand the high-classified fencers not wanting to compete unless there's a classification in it for them. Did they earn their "A"s by not wanting to fence?

I can think of an alternative, and maybe more charitable reason for their not competing, though. I'm only a B, not an A, but even so I've been to a few competitions in the past -- not many, but a few -- where I felt that I really shouldn't have been there, because the rest of the fencers were *much* weaker, and it should really have been a D or E event, not an open. I wasn't adding anything to the classifications available, it didn't seem fair for me to be there, and I would have withdrawn if I could.

I have to say, though, that I've seen few such events in recent years. I fear I'm getting weaker, and everybody else is getting stronger.

[oiuyt]

whtouche- Peach has already clarified, but I wasn't a new A. I believe the only local sabre tournament that I've even been at where a new A was created was a couple of years ago when Evan earned his, beating out Daria and myself. I originally earned mine nationally, have re-earned it twice locally, and have been in (I believe) four other local A tournaments (two won by Evan, one won by Ben Igoe, one won by Matt Zich). So in five of the six local A-level tournaments that I can remember participating in, an A won. And Evan was solidly A-level and had solidly lodged himself on the points list when he earned his.

Correction: Two more occured to me, one each won by Daria and Tim Morehouse. So 7 of 8 A-level local events that I've been in have been won by an A.

-B :)