Foil Timings and Video Evidence

[Craig]

From the thread on the FIE Proposals:

I think the new foil times have done enough to destroy foil. Removal of the white lights would be even worse. Watching the Athens video clips of the Mens Team Foil this is really cool crap. The footwork and blade work is just awesome to watch and relatively easy to follow. However, some of the recent video posting (a spanish tournament comes to mine though i forget the name) of high level foil is downright embarressing. even on the local level what used to be entertaining foil fencing has turned into --Beautiful attack--strong parry--great riposte--(no light)--Remise remise remise remise--
IMHO I think foil has been hurt the worst with the new timings.

Can anyone send me references to video that you have, in your possession, that shows proof of foil hits not going off under the new timings?

If you have this, please PM me or email me at craig <at> fencing.net so that I can obtain a copy from you.

There have been a number of anecdotal reports, but I want to see a set of verified incidents that I can report on.

Thanks,
Craig

[wflaschka]

If you have this, please PM me or email me at craig <at> fencing.net so that I can obtain a copy from you.

Keep us up to date on your findings! Casual watching of available video discloses some of the problems, but none of the degree, of what anti-timers are complaining about. It would be cool to start working with some solid info, either way.

[Barry Paul]

If you can let me have it when the clip is found.

One of the problems is that the people who can make changes are not convinced there is any thing wrong. They have said to me at the juniors W/C no body was making any complaints while fencing. I did point out that complaints which can easily lead to a red and black card is unlikely at any competition never mind at the W/C.

It is difficult to distiguish between fact and fiction, in order to get sensible change the top fencers need to provide more facts. just saying it does not work and demanding a return to the old timing is unlikely to helpful.

[ChubbyHubby]

One of the problems is that the people who can make changes are not convinced there is any thing wrong. They have said to me at the juniors W/C no body was making any complaints while fencing. I did point out that complaints which can easily lead to a red and black card is unlikely at any competition never mind at the W/C.

[cynic mode=on]
Barry, you could always make an extra large pair of breeches (knickers to our US friends), put Roch's fat behind in it and make him fence and see if he can get a light on. oh, perhaps give him a hearing aid while you are at it
[cynic mode=off]

[DanInMI]

[cynic mode=on]
Barry, you could always make an extra large pair of breeches (knickers to our US friends), put Roch's fat behind in it and make him fence and see if he can get a light on. oh, perhaps give him a hearing aid while you are at it
[cynic mode=off]

I have seen NO evidence at the last few tourneys that i have been to that good solid straght attacks fail to register with the new timings. Of course there are sometimes those instances where one fencer thinks that he or she should have scored a touch and asks the referree if he may test, but that happened BEFORE the new timings as well. It does not seem to me that is happening any more often than before.

[tbryan]

I have seen NO evidence at the last few tourneys that i have been to that good solid straght attacks fail to register with the new timings.

I have. I have seen exactly this type of action a few times in the last year (various fencers from my club and from others). I'm not talking about glancing shots or flicks that "seem" solid. I've seen actions that are nice and straight, tip reaches target, and the foil bends. No light. And it's not because of the lockout timing either. We fence on the new timings at my club, so I have a very good feel for the lockout.

I saw my teammate fencing at the Southeast Sectionals. They're both right-handed fencers. Neither one displaced or ducked or anything. The final action was an attack against my friend which he parried, immediate riposte, and remise from the attacker. The riposte was straight (probably indirect) with no flick or anything. I could see the tip hit the lame on the riposte. I could see my friend's blade bend. He was hit by the remise -- one light for the remise.

Another example. I was at the NAC in Chattanooga. I failed to parry one of my opponent's attacks. I didn't retreat quite far enough. A straight attack landed solidly on the front side of my chest. I have no idea what happened. My opponent recovered. I paused. Then we both realized that there was no halt and no lights on the box. I just wish that I had been quick enough to hit him in the moment where he relaxed for a second. I didn't because I was certain that I had just been hit.

It doesn't happen often, but it does happen. I don't mind anything about the timings at the level that I fence foil (Div II and Div I NACs in the US). I would say to keep them except for these straight attacks that don't score from time to time.

[tbryan]

Can anyone send me references to video that you have, in your possession, that shows proof of foil hits not going off under the new timings?

I directed at a local tournament in Charlotte, NC, where there were two or three hits that look like they hit something, but there was no light on that fencer's side. Someone made a DVD that includes that bout. I'm not sure whether you're looking for elite level competition or what. This bout was between two C-rated foil fencers. The other problem is that the fencer who was experiencing this problem was on my right, and both fencers were right-handed. Thus, we're looking at the back of the fencer who is supposedly being hit. I'll take a look at it to see whether you can at least see the blade bend or something. If I had a clear shot of his blade bending but no light on his side, would that be of interest?

[Frank Pratt]

It doesn't happen often, but it does happen. I don't mind anything about the timings at the level that I fence foil (Div II and Div I NACs in the US). I would say to keep them except for these straight attacks that don't score from time to time.

I have not been to any foil tournaments since the change was made, but from reading the other posts that discuss the new timings, I was under the impression that the issue with straight attacks was happening mostly at ther higher and elite levels where the attacks are so fast that as the blade bends, the tip looses contact with the lame and pops back out of the barrell before the 15ms debounce interval passes. This is not to say that there are no decent fencers with a rating of C or below that attack this fast, just that the problem generally seem more prevenalt at higher levels of competition.

[DanInMI]

I have. I have seen exactly this type of action a few times in the last year (various fencers from my club and from others). I'm not talking about glancing shots or flicks that "seem" solid. I've seen actions that are nice and straight, tip reaches target, and the foil bends. No light. And it's not because of the lockout timing either. We fence on the new timings at my club, so I have a very good feel for the lockout.

I saw my teammate fencing at the Southeast Sectionals. They're both right-handed fencers. Neither one displaced or ducked or anything. The final action was an attack against my friend which he parried, immediate riposte, and remise from the attacker. The riposte was straight (probably indirect) with no flick or anything. I could see the tip hit the lame on the riposte. I could see my friend's blade bend. He was hit by the remise -- one light for the remise.

Another example. I was at the NAC in Chattanooga. I failed to parry one of my opponent's attacks. I didn't retreat quite far enough. A straight attack landed solidly on the front side of my chest. I have no idea what happened. My opponent recovered. I paused. Then we both realized that there was no halt and no lights on the box. I just wish that I had been quick enough to hit him in the moment where he relaxed for a second. I didn't because I was certain that I had just been hit.

It doesn't happen often, but it does happen. I don't mind anything about the timings at the level that I fence foil (Div II and Div I NACs in the US). I would say to keep them except for these straight attacks that don't score from time to time.

You mentioned TWO touches.

Some of these people claim up to "20% of all valid hits" resulting in a touch not registering on the new timings. That is clearly ridiculous. I did see one touch like you describe occur at a tourney a couple months ago. It was straight, bent blade etc. clearly a touch.

Now some people said "see? it's those damn new timings!" But since we had been using the same equipment all weekend, and that was just one touch out of thousands that I witnessed, it would be a stupid leap of logic to suggest that was due to the new timings.

(Maybe it was, but there is no evidence of that.)

[rsy]

The straight hit that does not go off is not apocryphal. While directing I have seen the straight hit not going off a great deal and I can even tell when it is most likely to happen:

Fencer A attacks, fencer B parries and ripostes, fencer A remises by accelerating and closing distance -- Result, fencer A lands, but no light, fencer B gets a light, especially if his arm was not a fully extended;

Fencer A attacks, fencer B accelerates forward, closes distance and counterattacks -- Result, same as above.

This isn't just a fluke or a rare occurrence, this is a technique that fencers are deliberatley using and I assume that their coaches are teaching it to them.

-r

[mollusk]

I did a lot of men's foil directing yesterday at my Divisionals and didn't see a huge number of direct hits that didn't register. Then again we only had one fencer with a chest protector (long time user - not trying to get an edge, by the way) and he was wearing soft enough outerwear that it really didn't matter. The attacks that didn't register were ones where the blade bent a lot and in the "good old days" we would have just said that your attack was flat if we saw a snapshot of the bent blade instead of seeing a nice direct thrust in with full extention from a little too close distance. That could be due to grounding out on the lame or it could be due to the tip not being depressed long enough. I don't know which. I clearly remember one action where the fencers were too close together, kind of between reposte distance and in-fighting distance: attack no (point lands but with a resulting big bend on the blade), counterattack parried with reposte again no (again the point lands, but with a big bend), counterattack parried yet again with reposte good. All day I only had to give out one card for turning back when the fencer was sure that he had scored and he didn't.

There was one fencer that used the kamikazi counter-attack approach with some success, but fencers that kept good distance had no trouble with him. Those that liked to hold ground, blade parry, and then reposte at close distance didn't do so well. Here I don't know if it was lockout timing on the quick remise or a problem with getting a touch with the required debounce time that was the problem.

[veeco]

The problem with video evidence would be that it might be difficult to argue that the hit not registering happened _because_ of the new timings. You could argue that the problem came from a malfunctioning weapon, or a bad spot on the lame, or something else, like a break in the body wire or something else.

It's pretty hard to find documented evidence of such hits not registering.

I have myself seen with the new timings a bout where a fencer clearly hit his opponent, and the light didn't go off. This happened only once. And when I checked the fencer's foil, his tape was in very poor condition. I told him to fix his tape, and it didn't happen to him again on that day.

Now, I am not saying this doesn't happen, it could be that the combination of "new timings + bad tape" is more likely to see hits not registering than the combination of "same bad tape + old timings". I can certainly see why this would happen more. But IMO, this is not really something that can be put completely on the new timings on their own. Foil fencers and sabre fencers have to deal with more complex electric circuits, and it happens every once in a while that some hits don't register. It's a pain in the butt, but having well maintained equipment can take care of most of these issues.

[oiuyt]

No documentary evidence, unfortunately.

People are now getting used to non-light situations, so rarely are there noticible complaints, at least during the fencing. Yeah, they're going to be annoyed. Yeah, they'll B&M to friends after the event. But what's the point of railing against the timings during the bout? Same thing with stupid remises locking out direct ripostes in sabre. We don't yell and scream about it, but it doesn't mean it doesn't happen. Or that it isn't an artifice of the new timings.

I was fencing foil at the club last week. Clear shot to my sternum, no light. Direct attack, dead center of chest. No chest plate, but I'm skinny so there isn't much padding there. Bounce. No question about it being a marginal hit, sliding past, bending too much and shorting out, etc.

Was reffing foil a month ago, had two fencers make simultaneous attacks off the "fence" command. One hit, putting on a light. The other hit dead center chest, blade bent beautifully (which could very easily have been a part of the problem). As it released he got a delayed off-target light. He never came near any off-target areas. He was not happy. Tall aggressive fencer who closed distance way too much and way too fast against some overmatched opponents and he was having frequent difficulties with very clear hits not registering.

-B :)