No place for the Matrix

[Mandos]

Too often, I've read articles in fencing sites and magizines, and a common thing relayed to readers is that you need to be proficient in being able to avoid touches solely with your body. Erin Smart said that you shoul make use of a drill where you move out of range of a lunge. Not a bad idea... but she says that you may have to dodge just with your body in bouting.

Now, that may not be a bad skill to have, but I think that a fencer's biggest priority should always be bladework. If your parrys are top-notch, you'll have NO NEED to body-dodge. Fencing is, after all, about bladework for the majority, and while I place a big emphasis on footwork, I never it substitute for good bladework.

[mrbiggs]

Originally Posted by Mandos

Too often, I've read articles in fencing sites and magizines, and a comon thing relayed to readers is that you need to be proficient in being able to avoid touches solely with your body. Erin Smart said that you shoul make use of a drill where you move out of range of a lunge. Not a bad idea... but she says that you may have to dodge just with your body in bouting.

Now, that may not be a bad skill to have, but I think that a fencer's biggest priority should always be bladework. If your parrys are top-notch, you'll have NO NEED to body-dodge. Fencing is, after all, about bladework for the majority, and while I place a big emphasis on footwork, I never it substitute for good bladework.

The higher the level you fence at, the more important footwork is.

Without footwork, it is pretty much impossible to defeat a good marching attack, no matter how good your bladework is. You can get away with bad footwork in epee, but it's nearly impossible in RoW weapons.

Here's an interesting thread on the topic.

[Mandos]

I search for any possible topic that might have already said what I want to, and I find nothing, then BAM! somebody throws a thread at me, exactly like mine. Its enough to make me become a hermit.

[mrbiggs]

Originally Posted by Mandos

I search for any possible topic that might have already said what I want to, and I find nothing, then BAM! somebody throws a thread at me, exactly like mine. Its enough to make me become a hermit.

I cheated; I knew the thread title, so searching for it was easier.


(And no, I don't usually have that good of a memory, it's just that it was one of my favorite threads.)

[oso97]

As I instruct my beginning fencers, this is not a static sport we practice. It is full of movement and motion. Your blade may be what scores the touch, but it is your footwork that gets you within range of your opponent to score, or gets you out of the way to prevent him from doing so.

[Mr Epee]

Originally Posted by mrbiggs

Without footwork, it is pretty much impossible to defeat a good marching attack, no matter how good your bladework is, especially in RoW weapons.

There is no Marching Attack

Free your mind!

Welcome to the Real World, Neo!

Do you think that's a Marching Attack you're doing?

Interesting...

[Mandos]

I agree, but to reiterate what I said, its just those people that emphasive all footwork have an imbalance, and the biggest one is this; if you move out of range to avoid a long lunge, you really give yourself no advantage unless height is a issue (ie, your opponent is short). Once out of range, you allow the other fencer the chase to come back on guard; so what did you accomplish.

[mrbiggs]

I think that the problem is that good bladework is, relatively, easy to get. It's simply a matter of learning the form of the parries, which is very simple. Doing them quickly and efficiently can be accomplished from simple, occaisional tips. It can be easily practiced during bouts.

Footwork on the other hand is, I think, much more dependant on form. It is counterintuitive, unlike bladework. Then, perfecting footwork takes alot of training, both on and off the strip. Your balance, form, movement, etc., all have to be correct. Meanwhile, off-strip training is required to improve footwork speed.

So I think that possibly, footwork isn't necessarily all that much more important, but it's something to concentrate on more, because it's harder to perfect.

[edew]

Originally Posted by Mandos

I agree, but to reiterate what I said, its just those people that emphasive all footwork have an imbalance, and the biggest one is this; if you move out of range to avoid a long lunge, you really give yourself no advantage unless height is a issue (ie, your opponent is short). Once out of range, you allow the other fencer the chase to come back on guard; so what did you accomplish.

In both foil and saber, the goal of getting out of range is to take over right of way. After the opponent makes an attack that falls short, he is in a vulnerable position (a deep lunge) and does not have right of way. You, if you did your footwork homework right, is in a balanced and fluid position, able to advance or continue retreating at will. And, you now have right of way. So, when you go after your opponent, if he chooses to try a stop-hit or some counter-attack, you just finish your attack and when both lights go on, you're the one getting the point.

It's your footwork that makes your opponent attack you, it's your footwork that makes your opponent miss you, and it's your footwork that will get you back towards your opponent to hit him.

Footwork is everything. It's footwork that allows you to make the parry you need to do.

[sreckiki]

Originally Posted by Mandos

Now, that may not be a bad skill to have, but I think that a fencer's biggest priority should always be bladework. If your parrys are top-notch, you'll have NO NEED to body-dodge. Fencing is, after all, about bladework for the majority, and while I place a big emphasis on footwork, I never it substitute for good bladework.

What's your definition of bladework? Do you include parry and derobement in your definition?

I'm asking that because I'm an epee fencer using a french grip (you know... a frog ) and I NEVER make a parry. I only use derobement and my footwork makes the difference. It happens really often that I retreat faster than my opponent lunges and a lot of people collapse when you do that. Then, you have many open targets.

I agree that I am not a world class fencer (even if I beat regurlarly a potential Olympian of my area ) and if you wanna get a medal in the OG, you need both footwork and bladework (including parry) but you can achieve a decent level without a lot of bladework... my comment here is about Epee fencing, of course!

[Mandos]

An excellent point, and something I'll take to heart. And as good a piece of advice as it is, you see so many fencers who simply 'reset' and wait for the next attack, instead of jumping on the opportunity given to you, in terms of RoW. And yes, footwork is everything, as long as you can use your weapon!

[Mandos]

Of course, my bladework isn't as in-depth in epee as it is in foil. However, as little as I do make effective parries, I rely on attacks to the arm, because so many people in epee do not have good bladework. And yes, I'd include elements such as derobing in the definition, especially against those who are obsessive-compulsive in taking your blade before attacking.

[D+F+P=Hadouken!]

You have 2 feet, 1 blade, yes?

[Mandos]

Last time I checked........................................... .................................................. .................I think so. However, you don't touch with your feet, do you?

[Rodeo79]

Timing and foot work are everything.

You can beat people with straight attack if you have a fast lunge and can move into correct distance...

People with good blade work only will get frustrated trying to hit you because you move in and out before they can set up for their attack properly...

Good fencers have good footwork or blade work...
Great fencers have both...

[AndrewH]

Originally Posted by Mandos

If your parrys are top-notch, you'll have NO NEED to body-dodge.

The most important element of a parry is the distance you take it with. I can execute a perfect 4 parry but if I'm only inches away from my opponent, I'll get hit anyway. Parry is your absolute last resort, when distance had failed you. I mean, look at it logically. In sabre,you have a 30% chance of succesfully making a parry, as all attacks tend to come to one of 3 lines. At the last second you're basically making a complete guess as to which line to parry. Versus using distance to avoid an attack, all you have to do is properly time your footwork. No guessing which line to parry.

Bottom line: footwork is your first line of defense. When you can't avoid an attack with distance, and the opponent is rapidly closing in, and one foot is off the end of the strip? NOW it's time to take a parry.

[kalivor]

Originally Posted by D+F+P=Hadouken!

You have 2 feet, 1 blade, yes?

Personally, I have a few spare blades, but no spare feet.

[kalivor]

Originally Posted by Mandos

Of course, my bladework isn't as in-depth in epee as it is in foil.

How so? In foil, you take the blade and you have RoW ... your necessary bladework is done. In epee, you then (often) have to use a bind or opposition in order to ensure that your opponent doesn't score as you make your hit.

I'd say that creates an additional magnitude of difficulty in the bladework.

Of course, some epeeists may foresake such a hit in favour of a more tempo/footwork based hit, such as a counterattack, but I wouldn't dismiss epee bladework out of hand.

[edew]

Originally Posted by AndrewH

The most important element of a parry is the distance you take it with. I can execute a perfect 4 parry but if I'm only inches away from my opponent, I'll get hit anyway. Parry is your absolute last resort, when distance had failed you. I mean, look at it logically. In sabre,you have a 30% chance of succesfully making a parry, as all attacks tend to come to one of 3 lines. At the last second you're basically making a complete guess as to which line to parry. Versus using distance to avoid an attack, all you have to do is properly time your footwork. No guessing which line to parry.

Bottom line: footwork is your first line of defense. When you can't avoid an attack with distance, and the opponent is rapidly closing in, and one foot is off the end of the strip? NOW it's time to take a parry.

Actually, footwork is your first, second, and last line of defense. Parrying, in both saber and foil, is merely a protocol to take over right of way. If you're parrying for survival, you're dead. If you're parrying to take over right of way, you'll make it. But to do the latter version of parrying, you need to survive by using your footwork.

[kalivor]

Originally Posted by Mandos

Last time I checked........................................... .................................................. .................I think so. However, you don't touch with your feet, do you?

You don't touch without moving your feet, do you?