Wanted - a change in the rules (coaching on strip)

[D'Artagnan1673]

I would like to see the FIE eliminate coaching of fencers during the 1 minute break during DE bouts. I have two reasons for this. Fencers shouldn't be allowed ouside input since its their job to read the opponent. Also, some people like myself do not have a coach and therefore are at a disadvantage when their opponent is getting tips from their coach.

I ran into this problem at my last tourny. I was winning very easily until the break. His teamate came up and started telling him from his perspective everything I was doing while I just sat there worrying that my whole strategy was going to get wrecked. My other teamates were fencing or away so I had no advice to counter the other guys. I still won, but not with as much ease as I perhaps should have.

Fencing is an individual sport, we shouldn't have people giving us tips in between points. It should be our and our responcibility alone to discern what our opponent is doing on the strip.

[ 04-28-2002: Message edited by: webmaster ]</p>

[Mr. Foilist]

Are you serious? Well, then maybe we should just outlaw coaches since it's unfair for another fencer to even have a coach since you don't have one. <img src="graemlins/jester.gif" border="0" alt="[Jester]" />

I think the solution to your problem would be to get a coach. Or, you could just fence your nards off at club and practice moves and what to do when an oponent does the appropriate counter-move. This way, you'll already know what the fencer is going to do to get around the previously successful moves. So, at the end of the one minute break, you should be just as successful as before because you'll have changed your game, without the assistance of a coach.

I do sympathize with you, though. I have a coach. But, he has a lot of students that show up at the same tourneys that I go to. So, I understand that he can't just sit there and watch me all the time. So, there have been many times that he hasn't been there when I needed him. No big deal. I fenced my way out of most problems. Usually, when someone coaches a fencer as to what to do against you, you can instantly find out what they're going to do by simply doing the same action again and see what they change to get around you. Then, you should know what to do for the rest of the bout. You may give up a touch or two but, if you're ahead anyway, it shouldn't matter.

The more you practice, the better you'll get, and the more you'll be able to change your game on your own.

[quote]Originally posted by D'Artagnan1673:
<strong>I would like to see the FIE eliminate coaching of fencers during the 1 minute break during DE bouts. I have two reasons for this. Fencers shouldn't be allowed ouside input since its their job to read the opponent. Also, some people like myself do not have a coach .............It should be our and our responcibility alone to discern what our opponent is doing on the strip.</strong><hr></blockquote>

[ 04-26-2002: Message edited by: Mr. Foilist ]</p>

[Sciurus Rex]

[quote]Originally posted by Mr. Foilist:
<strong>Maybe we should just outlaw coaches ... since you don't have one. </strong><hr></blockquote>

I have to agree. But I'd like to take it a step further and eliminate spectators, too. I think it really sucks to spend hours traveling to another area, fence my little heart out, and yet still have my spirit squashed because *certain* fencers have the "home team" advantage. What's with all that cheering and pats on the back, anyway? Do I have anyone on hand to make ME feel good about myself?! -- NOOOOOoooo! If each of us can't have at least five fans to spur us to victory, then I don't think spectators should be allowed at all.

And another thing: What's the deal with some competitors having special fencing shoes, while the rest of us have to struggle with street gear? ...

So unfair. So, so, so unfair.

[Craig]

I disagree. If you don't have a coach at the strip for you, then deal. It's not really as much of an advantage as you make it out to be.

Most fencers are going to do what they're going to do. What the coach does is offer an outside observation - like "Hey, that dude got 5 counterattacks in a row on you, you should set a trap coming out of the time out."

I think that adds a bit of complexity - what is the coach telling their fencer? How should I adapt to that? Have they anticipated my answer to it? What if I just do what I've been doing?

It is very satisfying to go through the tactical tree/wheel during your bout and figure out what your opponent or their coach is going to offer up. Then you start back out showing the same game as before, but then switching into a trap by jumping down to the answer to their answer.

But to get back to the topic - There is nothing wrong with coaching on the side of the strip. I have nothing against it during time outs or between touches as long as it is not disruptive. That is a part of sports.

Cheers,
Craig

[Bebop and Rocksteady]

Bah, I don't have a coach. Even teacher is too strong a word. More like, someone who tells us what drills to do.

My teacher is a good fencer, but he doesn't really teach much. I learned almost everything from reading a bunch of fencing books, and studied my fencing on tape, and I even do some things I thought of on my own. Some help from a coach would really help though. Maybe I should go for some private lessons... *shrugs*

As for the 1 minute break in DE bouts, you should consider it a privledge, even if you don't have a coach. It's a lot better than going for 15 long touches straight, which gets you exhausted quickly. I know from experience.

[Purple Fencer]

Gotta agree with Webby here, D'Art. If you don't have a coach at the strip with you (as I never do), then - in the words of Terry Dix, SoCal Division Chairman - "sucks to be you."

I went through four DEs in Div II foil at Nats last year with no one to coach me. Not that a coach form my salle wasn't present, but he'd been paid to coach his actual students. I got a few helpful hints from temamates between bouts, but that's not the same as during the D break.

if you see your opponent had a coach and you don't...watch the other coach. Sometimes (as happened to me in my 2nd DE), that coach will give away what he's telling his guy, and you can change your tactics to counter that. it REALLY upset my guy when he tried changing his game and found I was countering everything he tried to do!

[AndrewH]

With highschool fencing, coaches are allowed 1 timeout per bout to talk to their fencer. For some reason, no matter how far ahead any of us were when our coach called a timeout, we always seemed to lose. When he let us fence on our own, we stood a much better chance of winning. So we were actually scared when he called a timeout because we KNEW we'd lose! So I guess having a coach there isn't always an advantage....

[Inquartata]

What was that Vonnegut story, in which equality of outcome had been made law? If you were stronger than average, the government made you wear heavy weights around; if your eyesight was better than other people's, you had special glasses that made it blurry locked onto your head; if you were smarter than was deemed proper, you got a headset that sent sloud squawks into your ears every few seconds to keep you from concentrating unfairly, to the disadvantage of those smarter than you...

[swordsen]

Here ia a suggestion for you D'art. During the break if the other guy is being coached, watch him. Most coaches talk with thier hands. It is often very possible, even easy, to see what he is telling his fencer to do. This then gives you the advantage again.

[Mo]

Listening to what the other coach is telling your opponent is an excellent idea. One time this coach went into great detail how his coachee could beat my child and she just stood there and listened. She changed everything and the other kid still lost. He did it in front of her like it was some kind of dare....
You win by working your butt off and never giving up. (and having a great set of parents who support you)
If you need someone to support you find a bored looking person and strike up a conversation. I bet one of them will take the time to lend you some emotional support. Make friends with other fencers who fence different weapons with not much to do.
Good luck!!

[Peach]

Frankly, I prefer my own coach to stay the heck off the strip when I'm fencing, because I can't make sense of his advice and it distracts me.

I have benefited from simple coaching on the strip, and my opponents have also (I lost in Palm Springs Vets because my opponent's friends were shouting advice at her, which she took, and which I couldn't bring my brain to take in, more fool I).

It's part of the deal. Actually, they're talking about implementing the 8-touch break in sabre DEs which would finally allow coaches to give advice part way through a bout. Wouldn't that be cool?

[Craig]

I'm changing the title of this thread. Since it is not about a current or real change in the rules but a desired change, I've changed the title to more appropriately reflect that.

Cheers,
Craig

[MikeHarm]

Well, I notice they're working on selling masks with wireless video cameras with Zivkovik. Throw in a microphone, and an earphone and the coach could see what you're seeing and talk back and forth during the bout without having to approach the strip in the future.

[Lordy]

I have an idea. Why don't we get rid of all the good fencers too? Why stop at their coaches. Anyone who is competent should be barred from fencing tournaments worldwide. That way all the "developing" fencers who don't have a clue can continue to aspire to their dreams of becoming the best fencers in the world without the annoying setback of having to develop skill, utilize talent, gain experience or being anything more than... medio-, uhhh "developing..."

[D'Artagnan1673]

what does coaching on the strip have to do with skill?????

Maybe I am just fed up because ever since 10th grade, whether I am fencing or playing tennis I've never had a coach around and its starting to aggrivate me when the other guy is getting outside observations on my technique.

I don't think the good or bad fencers should get this. And yes, in the example I put, I know exactly what the guy was told to do. He was told to press me more since I was the one doing the attacks. I therefore spent a fair amount of the bout after that retreating and parrying until I saw an opening. I won the bout so I am not terribly deficient in skill, I just find it a touch unfair.

[longs]

I agree with D'Art somewhat. It is annoying when an opponent is getting advice on how to beat you. But yet again, if I had a coach who was willing to give me a few ideas, then I'm not going to turn him/her down. But I have a little trick that anyone could use. Mix up your strategy throughout the tourney, I know this isn't easy but it'll keep any coach on the conservative-side when coaching. And I agree with the people who say listen to the coach when he/she is giving your opponent advice: watch the hands and feet and adjust to what advise you think they received. So, if your opponent is getting advice, deal with it: Observe, Adjust, Adapt.

[KShan5[PrFC]]

I completely disagree for a few reasons. One, most of the time your coach will give you a few words of advice, but most likely just encourage you to do well and fence your best. And two, eithere get a coach or suck it up. Join a club, there are coaches there who travel to tourney's. Get advice from them.

[ 04-29-2002: Message edited by: KShan5[PrFC] ]</p>

[D'Artagnan1673]

[quote]Originally posted by KShan5[PrFC]:
<strong>And two, eithere get a coach or suck it up. Join a club, there are coaches there who travel to tourney's. Get advice from them.
</strong><hr></blockquote>


Easier said than done. I do belong to a club, you can check it out by looking at my profile. Our club does not have a club. And two, never start a sentance with and, because or or. I live in an area of the country where the nearest club aside from my own is 90 miles away.

[Pommel]

Which brings us back to the point that you have a problem with this because YOU don't have a coach. As somebody said much earlier: "Sucks to be you."

[Inquartata]

Hey, if we were to start passing rules against activities that annoy people, where does it end?

People who yell annoy me.

Colored lames annoy me.

People who hit too hard annoy me. ( For that matter, people who manage to hit me at all annoy me, but never mind about that! )

Having to salute or shake hands or call the referee "sir" annoys some people.

( This space available---your pet peeve here. )

At least coaches in fencing can be useful. I saw parts of the speed skating from the Winter Olympics, and even they had coaches ( on skates, on the ice, who'd tell them things every time their skater went past ). What the heck is there to advise a skater on, for pity's sake? "Skate faster"? "Skate even FASTER"? "Skate faster still"?