FIE certified Glove?

[whtouche]

Does anyone here know of any companies that sell an FIE certified puncture resistent glove? A set of semi recent circumstances has convinced me of, if not it's necessity, then it's utility. First at the NAC in denver the blade that went through Ruth Ann's glove and into her arm. Additionally, the puncture of touya's hand at the olympics. And more recently my own personal experience. This past saturday fencing, opponants blade lands tip first at the base of my palm where hand meets wrist, punctures my glove and slides up my sleeve. I ended up with a scratch 3/5 of the way up my arm on the underside of my forearm. Pretty scary.
Additionally, a couple weeks ago at sectionals, fencing a pool bout and my opponants blade ended up puncturing my glove between my middle and ring finger, cutting/drawing blood, and bruising a couple of knuckles. I also have a hole on the side of my glove opposite the palm that punctured the top layer and cut thru the foam a bit but didn't puncture all the way through.

So, if there is any company that sells an FIE certified glove, or something of similar material I would be interested in hearing about it, or suggestions about how to get it done.
If I were to have one made, where would I be able to get the material - short of cutting up an FIE uniform?

[Purple Fencer]

No one that I know makes a resistant glove.

I;m trying to find a glove maker locally (in the US) that can make one and was thinking of incorporating more puncture resistant materials, but the manufacturing costs are so low overseas that that's where a lot of gloves are made, not just fencing ones.

[kalivor]

I have no idea if anybody sells a "puncture resistant" glove, but I can guarantee that if they do, it is not FIE certified. The FIE doesn't have puncture-resistant standards for gloves.

[oiuyt]

All of the FIE standards for clothing are for the cloth, not what is made of the cloth. Masks and blades are certified as final products, clothing is certified as components. So a glove made of FIE-certified materials could be considered FIE.

Talk to Barry. See if he's interested in doing a run of prototypes and testing the market for demand. I'd guess that LP is going to be more able (and considerably better at execution) to quickly come up with an innovative product like that than just about anyone else in the world. Don't know that people would be interested in the change in the feel of the glove moving away from leathers (and, much more commonly, the various synthetics), even if they are willing to pay the (I'm guessing) significantly increased costs from higher priced materials and individual manufacturing process in England vs. mass-production in Pakistan.

-B :)

[jjrenaud]

i've tried a lot of fencing gloves, the models from allstar and uhlmann were the worst.
after a friend of mine gave me an estoc épée leather glove with 800nw for the wrist part of the glove, that was a little bit better than the allstar but when i've discover the price, it was too expensive for not so much difference.
At the same time i've discover some italian gloves from negrini and carmimari, and i totaly prefer the carmimari model, you feel very comfortable, the quality is top and very good protection, i've spoke with the lady who is the owner of this company and she told me they're made in Italy in the same factory who made driving gloves for Schumacher, so good quality and good protection

[kalivor]

All of the FIE standards for clothing are for the cloth, not what is made of the cloth. Masks and blades are certified as final products, clothing is certified as components. So a glove made of FIE-certified materials could be considered FIE.

Heh ... you're completely right. In addition, having just re-read the appropriate rules right now, the standards for a glove appear to be the same as for a jacket or mask -- that is, a strict reading of the rules would require fencers at world cups to have 800 NW gloves.

Unless I missed something -- I just skimmed ...

[Barry Paul]

F.I.E. has no regulations covering gloves.

The European CEN regulations have two levels of protection level 1 and level 2.

The first level has no puncture resistant requirement, just a thickness and seam strength requirement.

The level 2 requirement has a puncture resistance of for the back of the hand and the back of the cuff a requirement of 350 Newton. Our G126 and G128 meet this requirement and both have hidden beneath the leather a piece of 350 stretch material (that is why some fencers have found these gloves initially stiff over the back of the hand).

For a look at what the 350 stretch withstands see our Biro Test video at http://fencingforum.com/forum/images/cloth_test.AVI.

As there is no requirement from the F.I.E. to use a level 2 glove we have not bothered to get our gloves certified to level 2 but recently we have started to get the paperwork together and will be applying for certification in a couple of weeks.

My main concern is with sabre especially with point hits we are working on a redesign but it is difficult to protect the soft fleshy part of the thumb. Which can be hit by point stop hits at sabre but we are working on it.

[oiuyt]

Articulated steel gauntlets. :)

-B :)

[lefty_monster]

"you've nought in the manner of luck, my friend." (i think i got that right.)

But seriously, that is scary. I always felt very safe in my leather glove and even more so in my new washable glove which has incredible padding on the back. But now that i look at it, it is kind of thin everywhere else.

I'm going to be having nightmares about my glove tonight!

[epeeisky]

When I first started epee my coach flicked me on my thumb and tore a dime sized hole in my glove. The whole inmy brand new glove wasnt that bad, it was the intense bleeding that followed that bothered me.

[Inquartata]

There are puncture-resistant gloves made for police and corrections officers, who have to search people who may be carrying knives, razor blades and needles, etc. You could probably wear one either under or over your fencing glove. Might have to cut off the fingers to get it to fit and not impede your doighté.

For example:

http://www.galls.com/style.html?asso...og&style=GL213

[KD5MDK]

Articulated steel gauntlets.

-B

I don't want any more target area down there than I possibly can get.

Articulated Ceramic/non-contuctive metal Gauntlets, if you must.

[DHCJr]

kalivor, if you just look at the words that are written, it would appear that FIE gloves, socks and shoes would be required. But, if you have read other discussions on the rule, you will find out that knowing the rules word for word is not important. Understanding the rules are.

Barry wrote a very good and informative post. I would like to add a small addition to help to understand why FIE gloves and socks are not required. They say a picture is worth a thousand words. Take for example Figure A-4 which is in Apendix A, Section 3.2 Vital Parts. It shows what vital areas the protective clothing must cover. The 4 pieces of clothing that cover those areas are the mask, jacket, plastron and breeches. That is why only those items are required to be FIE.

This is something that I just learned. I think that referees should look at the last sentence of Apendix A, Section 3.2 and make sure the fencers are following the rules.

whtouche, here is something you might be interested in hearing. Dan DeChaine has talk about the instance at the NAC that you are talking about and is going to bring it up at the next SEMI meeting. But it is not the glove, he will be talking about, but the blade. One of the consequences that came up with stiffining the blade in Sabre is sharp edges are now a problem where they were not before. Before the blade would bend, but now it is at least as stiff as a Epee. The tip of a Foil or Epee are camphered as well as the blade. That is not the case with Sabre. He is going to propose that the Sabre blades be camphered. Whether it will work, I don't know.

Others have said it, but I would also like to concur, the video and the information Barry Paul provided were very good.

[oiuyt]

This is something that I just learned. I think that referees should look at the last sentence of Apendix A, Section 3.2 and make sure the fencers are following the rules.

I've noticed that rule before. It doesn't specify a rigid cup, etc. Given common practice I've always assumed that the rule was followed basically by knickers design that had protective cloth shaped to, erm, cup the area.

IIRC, Dan mentioned once while we were chatting about various changes in the rules over time (specifically with the FIE clothing requirements) that at one point in time protective underwear was a requirement. This was while the FIE was shifting from 350N to 350N with 800N underwear, to 350N on limbs but 800N for groin and torso, to 800N everywhere (or something similar to that sequence).

Perhaps a legacy rule that wasn't corrected with one of the changes?

-B :)

[oiuyt]

Mmmm, just checked the French version (something I typically don't do).

En bas: protection incluse dans le pantalon : l'abdomen, les deux régions inguinales et les organes génitaux (par une coquille).

coquille translates as shell (and also is the word used for a bell guard IIRC).

So, yeah, that would imply a rigid cup and not merely cupping clothing.

Of course that part of the appendix is quoting the minutes of a meeting of the Medical Commission. They feel that those are the areas that are vital to protect. Does that mean that the rules require following that suggestion? Interesting question. Which, given that USFA competitions already don't require following the full FIE protective clothing requirements doesn't really apply to our domestic competitions.

-B :)

[kalivor]

kalivor, if you just look at the words that are written, it would appear that FIE gloves, socks and shoes would be required. But, if you have read other discussions on the rule, you will find out that knowing the rules word for word is not important. Understanding the rules are.

I know ... I was just expressing my amusement at another rule which means something other than what it says.

My initial post, if you'll read up that far, indicates that there are no FIE puncture-resistant requirements for gloves, hence no such thing as an FIE glove. Brad pointed out that the FIE rules were for material strength, and not for particular pieces of clothing, so I re-read the rules and was amused that they appear to state that an 800 NW glove is required. I think it's less clear that 800 NW socks and shoes are required -- there are specific sections outlining each piece of clothing after the 800 NW requirement is stated. The glove is one of them. Shoes are not, and socks are only mentioned in the section on pants. In fact, the rules do not appear to require that shoes be worn at all.

In reality (which is occasionally divorced from the rules as written), I stand by my original post: There is no such thing as an "FIE glove," though one could make one of FIE-approved materials for jackets, pants, etc. I don't think that you'll see the manufacturer put an FIE label on their gloves, though, and if someone tries to sell you an "FIE glove" it's probably a scam.

[WhipLash]

i've tried a lot of fencing gloves, the models from allstar and uhlmann were the worst.
after a friend of mine gave me an estoc épée leather glove with 800nw for the wrist part of the glove, that was a little bit better than the allstar but when i've discover the price, it was too expensive for not so much difference.
At the same time i've discover some italian gloves from negrini and carmimari, and i totaly prefer the carmimari model, you feel very comfortable, the quality is top and very good protection, i've spoke with the lady who is the owner of this company and she told me they're made in Italy in the same factory who made driving gloves for Schumacher, so good quality and good protection

in what way were uhlmann the worst? and can u point me to the website for carmimari? thanks

[DangerMouse]

http://www.carmimari.com

[WhipLash]

thank you.

[Barry Paul]

Talk to Barry. See if he's interested in doing a run of prototypes and testing the market for demand. I'd guess that LP is going to be more able (and considerably better at execution) to quickly come up with an innovative product like that than just about anyone else in the world.
-B

After looking at the difficulties and the risks we are working on a 800 Newton sabre glove design. so whtouche e-mail me with your glove size at Leon paul witha delivery address and I will send you a prototype to test. Barryl