High turnover rates at fencing clubs

[striker]

I had a talk with this fencing master a while back and he was
complaining about very high turnover rates at his club. His statistics
were extremely disturbing. He said from 16 people who started the
beginner class, only 6 or 7 showed up for the follow up intermediate class.
That is over 50% attrition rate !!

I would like to know your opinions as fencers and fencing masters.
What is the attrition rate at your club ?
Why do you think there is a high attrition rate in some fencing clubs ?
What do you do as a fencer or a fencing master to keep your students
interested in fencing and reduce the attrition rate ?

[Mr Epee]

Originally Posted by striker

He said from 16 people who started the
beginner class, only 6 or 7 showed up for the follow up intermediate class.
That is over 50% attrition rate !!

I think that is probably spot on.

Think about it.

People start things all the time they don't continue for a long time.

In setting up classes for people, I've noticed that people are more likely to sign up for fencing, if they know there is are specific in/out times. This is especially true for kids. Parents seem much more likely to enroll their kid in 6 week fencing class, than to get themselves tied into something for the long haul right off the bat.

[acaba]

The attrition rate at my club is huge. We are a collegiate club, not a for-profit salle but we face some of the same issues. Our beginner's classes start out huge: 70 people. After a couple of weeks, its down to something manageable like 30.

We found that the best way to keep people in the club was to break into small groups of 4-6 beginners to one old member. This way the beginners get more individualized training, they learn each other's names, and they get to personally meet current members of the club. It has probably doubled our retention rates. If we keep 5-6 from the initial class, we count it as good.

A 50% retention rate is pretty good from what I have heard from other fencing clubs. The life blood of most clubs is teaching classes to first-time fencers. The classes bring in the most $/hour and $/effort. The upper level fencers are more of a financial drain on a club. They demand more most resources (floor time, coach's time, strip time, etc.) with a smaller monetary outlay.

Aaron

[GreenDot]

I was on a collegiate club team for awhile, and we had the same problem (60+ people come to the first intro session, we ended up retaining 10 at most at the end of the year (usually much less). Fencing is just a lot more work than most people expect coming into it. When I started I don't think I touched a weapon for weeks or maybe a month (and we practiced 5 days a week, 3 hours a day.) Some people here talk about how they did footwork only for 6 months. Most people don't have the time or the drive to put in all that work before seeing any sort of results that they wouldn't get just by going to the gym.

-James

[Bayou Bum]

Originally Posted by acaba

A 50% retention rate is pretty good from what I have heard from other fencing clubs. The life blood of most clubs is teaching classes to first-time fencers. The classes bring in the most $/hour and $/effort. The upper level fencers are more of a financial drain on a club. They demand more most resources (floor time, coach's time, strip time, etc.) with a smaller monetary outlay.
Aaron

You really know how to ruin someone's day. I agree with what you said, but it is very depressing that the upper level fencers are a financial drain on a club. But, are we sure of the cause and effect here? Could it be that since we treat first-time fencers as the life blood and upper level fencers as a drain, we cause the very attrition mentioned?

[glowstix]

if you go from 16 to 7 i'd think thats pretty good. in '03, i started with about 20-25 in my beginner's class. after a month, it was 15-20. after spring break, it was down to 5. by the end of the year, it was 2 or 3.

i think most university clubs are like that. some years are up and others are just horrible. most students care more about kegstands than disengages; its that simple; they use the argument that no one fights with a sword these days so learning the skills don't transfer to real life but apparently basketball skills do..

most people join because they want to be d'artagnan or errol flynn then when they see that its more challenging than that, both mentally and physically, they quit. fencing is not easy to learn in the beginning and even the simplest drills confuses the heck out of a beginner; most people just can't handle that. i've said it on these boards before, fencing isn't for everyone and i don't say this from an "elitist" perspective. you have to have a particular mindset or certain curiosity and desire to learn unique things and not everyone is of this mindset.

[Mr Epee]

Originally Posted by glowstix

most people join because they want to be d'artagnan or errol flynn then when they see that its more challenging than that, both mentally and physically, they quit.
Snip...
you have to have a particular mindset or certain curiosity and desire to learn unique things and not everyone is of this mindset.

I tend not to agree with this statement.

Last year I was really into Raquetball. I was playing 2-4 times a week and although there weren't any classes, I had a good time and eventually got fairly competetive against some guys who were former "A" level Raquetball players.

I had fun, and learned about myself.

Then I quit.

I just didn't feel like doing it anymore. I enjoyed it, and might return to it someday. BUT when it came time to prioritize my time... it just didn't make the cut. It wasn't because Raquetball is hard (it is btw).

The problem isn't with the sport. The problem is with people who have other things to do. That's just life. Fencing for most people is an EXTRA activity.

Think about the attrition rate at health clubs. I don't have the statistics handy, but most people who join health clubs only stick with it for a few months, and end up paying for a membership that they don't use.

Fencing isn't any different.

All that said...

Alain reportedly has an extremely good retention rate for their taster classes.
You might see what he has to say.

[Peach]

I think we had 10 people in my beginner's class and ended up with 3 by the novice class some months later. I'm the only one I know of still fencing 10 years later, but that's not a big surprise. People take a fencing class out of vague interest or because they want to try out fencing, not because they necessarily want to commit to it for the rest of their lives.

In the course of the first class, people will find that (a) the footwork doesn't feel good (b) they don't actually have time for a class in their busy lives (c) getting hit is really annoying (d) hitting people is hard to do (e) they don't have enough money left to do a recreational class (f) they like chess better (g) they dislike (or are disliked by) the other people in their class (h) they have a hard time with the instructor OR . . . . (i) don't like the way the class is taught and feel they aren't learning properly. The last alternative is not necessarily the main reason people leave.

The most accomplished fencers don't necessarily cost the club much--not if you charge a good rate for lessons, charge travel expenses and fees, and expect your competitive fencers to pay club fees. However, classes are a STEADY source of income, and cash flow is essential if a club wants to stay alive. Adult lessons may feed a limited number of people into the ongoing membership, but they provide steady income. Besides, the adult fencers do tend to stick around and keep things going while youth and junior fencers are busy growing up and going away.

[remise]

g) they dislike (or are disliked by) the other people in their class

Bingo. Fencing (like ballet) seems to have more than its fair share of prima donnas. I know I'm going to be unpopular saying this, but I have personally seen newcomers spurned by rated fencers who wouldn't give them the time of day because they felt they were a 'waste of time'.

One of my children began fencing at aged 7, and was regularly spurned by the other fencers at the club as being too young, too 'newbie', not worthwhile, etc. Years of this went by. Now that he kicks @$$, suddenly these other fencers want to get on the strip with him. He remembers what it felt like to be 'benched' as it were, and never turns down a request to fence someone, even if they've only been at for two weeks.

Too bad others don't follow suit.

[Pointy]

Retaining 7 out of 16 beginners isn't bad. I'd say it's actually pretty good!

Of my beginners' class (my very first exposure to fencing), I think I'm the only one still fencing. I've seen about 5-6 beginners classes in the past 3 semesters and the average starting class size is about 30-40 people. By the time the last fencing class rolls around, we're lucky to have 10-15. Of those, only about 5-7 decide to continue with the intermediate class. So, from a start of about 30-40 people, we retain about 5 (if that) who want to stick with fencing for longer than a semester or two.

I'd say that, as a rule, if we have 2-5 people from a beginners' class who want to actually join the club (as opposed to just taking lessons), we're lucky. I've also noticed that, lately, at least at our club, those who tend to continue in fencing are the older fencers -- those who were introduced to fencing late in life (i.e. after they turned 25!). The college aged fencers who show up for the beginners' classes generally tend to not stick with fencing.

[Pointy]

Originally Posted by remise

g) they dislike (or are disliked by) the other people in their class

Bingo. Fencing (like ballet) seems to have more than its fair share of prima donnas. I know I'm going to be unpopular saying this, but I have personally seen newcomers spurned by rated fencers who wouldn't give them the time of day because they felt they were a 'waste of time'.

One of my children began fencing at aged 7, and was regularly spurned by the other fencers at the club as being too young, too 'newbie', not worthwhile, etc. Years of this went by. Now that he kicks @$$, suddenly these other fencers want to get on the strip with him. He remembers what it felt like to be 'benched' as it were, and never turns down a request to fence someone, even if they've only been at for two weeks.

Too bad others don't follow suit.

I agree with this. I saw a bit of this at our club but it was mainly centered around a certain weapon which will not be mentioned. Luckily, the guy who got me started at fencing never turned down a bout so even if he kept repeatedly handing me my a$$ on a platter (and he still does), I did learn to be a (hopefully) better fencer. The fencers whose primary weapon is the one that I chose to go with didn't turn down any bouts either.

As a personal policy, I don't turn down any offers of a bout except if I'm godawfully tired or if wheezing and asking for an oxygen mask.

[KD5MDK]

My college runs 3 full beginning fencing classes of 25-30 students each, and 1 intermediate class that never fills up, usually hits a dozen to 16.

[hello?]

I am surprised that everyone is talking about people leaving fencing...as opposed to people leaving one club/coach for another. It is so disturbing when that happens -- and yet I see it over and over. Then there are the compulsive "switchers" who go from one club to another looking for...what?

[oiuyt]

Is there a problem with switching clubs? Or belonging to/training at multiple clubs? If that's what a person wants out of his/her fencing experience and that's what's going to provide him/her with the most enjoyment, why not?

-B :)
*who in 10 years of fencing has officially represented 2 collegiate teams, plus 5 USFA clubs and occasionally fenced at several others*

[epeeisky]

At my fencing club out of 20 begginers there are around 5 of us left that went on to the novice class. Part of that is due to we are the only fencing club for over 60 miles. Also, the LA division doesnt hold the number or quality of the competitions that other divisions are able to sponsor. There is only one major tournament for our division, the CCO. So basically the attitude is not right to keep many fencers in my are.

[Mergs]

I would agree with most of the folks here. When I was coaching and teaching the classes at my club, I was estactic when my attrition rate was about 50%. I usually figured retention by the law of halves. For every level you basically got 50% of the previous level that when to the next level. Probably why I ended up with a bunch of half-a** good fencers! JK

Now if you are in a program that is for profit and you get beyond the introductory level, your attrition isn't so bad because now they have money invested in it. The ones that drop out before that are usually 'tire-kickers' or folks that figure that 'Gee, this is something I've always wanted to try' and now they've done it and, as was stated before, discovered it is a LOT harder than it looks and wander away. Unfortunately in the US we are SO into instant gratification, we expect to be hitting homeruns and scoring goals within the first few lessons!

No, I'd say you are doing well. Keep it up. You might want to get in touch with those who don't come back and do a survey of why the quit (not to badger them into coming back). You may find that it was someone's BO or snotty attitude. That you can change. You may also find that it fell into the tire-kicking arena, and they weren't buying that day. You won't know until you ask.

Good luck

[glowstix]

Originally Posted by remise

I know I'm going to be unpopular saying this, but I have personally seen newcomers spurned by rated fencers who wouldn't give them the time of day because they felt they were a 'waste of time'.

One of my children began fencing at aged 7, and was regularly spurned by the other fencers at the club as being too young, too 'newbie', not worthwhile, etc. Years of this went by. Now that he kicks @$$, suddenly these other fencers want to get on the strip with him. He remembers what it felt like to be 'benched' as it were, and never turns down a request to fence someone, even if they've only been at for two weeks.

Too bad others don't follow suit.

hey, its not fun to fence beginners. sometimes they cause you to develop bad habits. i personally fence beginners simply because i was one once and you have to learn but i try to keep it at an absolute minimum.

there's a also a reason i don't fence them that much which is what the thread is about in the first place: that fact that people drop out. why should i give some of my fencing time to someone who's going to quit in a few weeks?? and you CAN tell who will quit most of the time.

i'll fence newbies if they show genuine interest. i don't fence that often and i have to drive forever just to get to the club so i like to spend that time wisely by fencing the guys that have the same interest and enthusiasm as i do (and those that can kick my a$$ so i actually learn and improve).

[remise]

And that's exactly why fencing won't go here in the United States beyond what it is going now - or, it will....but it will change very....very slowly. Until that elitist, snobbish attitude is extinguished, fencing will, I think, always struggle. It's a shame.

[epee1]

Just to add my two cents. Our club is fairly young and we've only had a handful of beginner’s classes (mostly high school students) but it doesn't seem like we approach them from the same perspective. Most of the advanced fencers help as much as they can teaching the beginners. We pair up and teach them drills and more importantly, WHY we're doing a particular drill. I can't remember most of their names (or my children's for that matter), but they all know that the door is always open to sit and talk, ask questions and if I don't know I'll find out.

I think because our club is so small, only about 20 or so truly committed fencers, we see the beginners for their potential and (hopefully) longevity rather than an 8 week blip in our lives.

We're also a very social club and are sure to include the newbies in all invites, usually razing and beating them into submission until they agree to attend. We travel in packs to tournaments where only one or two team mates are fencing and encourage the beginners to go also.

The camaraderie is genuine and I believe that's what beginners look for and need. Some place where they're accepted warmly and appreciated. Sorry, I guess that was more like 25 cents worth.

[mlr2fence]

I'm not so sure that the drop-out rate in fencing is really any different than in other sports/activities. Most people will stay with the activity until the end of the season/lesson cycle and then move on to something else. There are just so many opportunities for sports/leisure activities that its challenging to remain focused on just one. The important thing is how the person walks away from the activity for that increases the possibility that they will someday return/encourage/support others. If the ex-fencer later on sees, for example, fencing in a TV commercial and it brings a smile to their face and a "I used to do that" we really didn't lose them, for at least they won't go around 'bashing' the sport to others.